Theos-Talk Archives (March 2006 Message tt00371)

Paul Johnson wrote:  "Real and human but at the same time in most 
cases recognized authorities in various spiritual traditions."  

Krsanna wrote:  What I had in mind with the words "real and human" 
was exemplfied by Wallace Black Elk, American Indian shaman who 
looked for all the world like a weathered old Indian who drove his 
pick-up truck like a bat out of hell.  His occult skill was 
understood only by those who worked directly with him in the 
shamanic context.  To the rest of the world, Black Elk looked like 
an old Indian.  One Halloween, a waitress admired his "costume" at 
length and asked what he was dressed up to be.  He was wearing 
ceremonial garb that he had not changed before stopping at a 
restaurant.  Black Elk was highly skilled in the occult and an 
active spokesperson for native cultures.   

Black Elk was among the first indigenous peoples representative in 
the United Nations when, in the 1970's, the native culture began 
lifing its head above the pall of conquest.  

Best regards,
Krsanna

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "kpauljohnson" <kpauljohnson@...> 
wrote:
>
> Dear Krsanna,
> 
> Thanks for an opportunity to clarify some points in a rancor-free 
> context.  Bruce wrote:
> >
> > "What Paul may have stumbled on in his book "The Masters 
Revealed" 
> >is the people involved in HPB's education.  A world-wide network 
of 
> >men trying to inspire good people to stand up against tyranny."
> > 
> While "network" might fit in a very broad sense, that is *HPB's* 
> network of inspirers, teachers, etc., it tends to obscure that 
there 
> were multiple lineages, multiple secret societies and spiritual 
> reform movements, with whom HPB was allied and from whom she 
learned 
> at different times.  Some were much more politically involved than 
> others.  And some *became* much more political *after* HPB got 
> involved with them. What is especially important to me now, and to 
> the Church of Light which I recently joined, is the transfer of 
HPB's 
> allegiance from her Egyptian (and Egyptophile European and 
> American) "brotherhoods" (which involved women too, most 
importantly 
> Emma Hardinge Britten) to a completely different set of Indian 
> sponsors.  Godwin's The Theosophical Enlightenment gives a fuller 
> explanation of this transfer than my books do.
> 
> Two key figures involved in that transfer were Swami Dayananda, 
about 
> whom I would urge anyone interested in the Masters question to 
think 
> outside the box of Theosophical exegesis, and Mikhail Katkov, who 
> published HPB's Indian writings in Russian.  Both were obviously 
> revered as spiritual Masters by their disciples-- formally so in 
the 
> Swami's case and informally so in Katkov's.
> 
> > HPB always said the adepts were living men who were part of a 
> > worldwide network that reached far into antiquity.  To identify 
> > living men associated with HPB is not surprising.  As far as I 
can 
> > tell from recent posts, Paul Johnson excluded the "paranormal" 
from 
> > his research to identify some of very real, very human men in 
HPB's 
> > association. 
> 
> Real and human but at the same time in most cases recognized 
> authorities in various spiritual traditions.  Here's a quote from 
TMR 
> that Desmond recently produced that goes to the heart of your post:
> 
> In "The Masters Revealed" you set forth the thesis that "most of 
these
> characters were authorities in one or more spiritual traditions; 
> others were accomplished writers. They helped prepare HPB for her 
> mission as a spiritual teacher and/or sponsored the Theosophical 
> Society from behind the scenes.  Although their teachings and 
example 
> affected HPB's development, the extent of their influence was 
usually 
> secret. In a few cases the argument for their acquaintance with 
HPB 
> is speculative, but usually the fact of a relationship is well 
> established and the real question is its meaning. Because their
> 'spiritual status' and psychic powers are inaccessible to 
historical
> research, these alleged criteria of 'Mahatmaship' are treated with
> agnosticism." (p. 14-15) Personally, I see in these few words not 
> only a lack of personal bias but also an abundance of integrity.
> 
> Thanks to Desmond for the last line.  I would just comment as an 
> aside to Carlos that it makes no sense to say that because 
spiritual 
> stature and psychic powers of figures from the past are not 
readily 
> accessible to historical investigation, that we ought not pursue 
*any 
> knowledge whatsoever* about individuals who have been identified 
as 
> adepts, because adepts by definition transcend physicality.  NO 
ONE's 
> spiritual stature and psychic powers are accessible to standard 
> scholarly investigation; the obvious implication would be that 
> historians are committing a spiritual crime to write about *anyone 
> who ever lived*.  Otherwise we are left with special pleading that 
> says it's OK to ask historical questions about Jesus or Buddha or 
> Alice Bailey but don't dare ask them about HPB and her Masters 
> because they are not only beyond reproach but exempt from normal 
> historical scrutiny.  That might play in the ULT or the Adyar ES 
but 
> it's Theosophical dogma that no one outside the movement will take 
> seriously. Why should they?  It's like Muslims saying cartoons 
about 
> everyone else are fine, but if they're about Muhammad let's have 
> riots.  That just makes the special pleaders look like enraged 
> fanatics.
> 
>  Nobody, to my knowledge, ever claimed that Morya's 
> > adept lineage terminated with Morya.
> > 
> > I've read only an excerpt from Paul Johnson's book, so I don't 
know 
> > how clear he was about the limitations of his research.  A good 
> > researcher defines the parameters of the work undertaken.    
> > 
> That was a very important objective of The Masters Revealed, 
whereas 
> its self-published predecessor was considerably less clear about 
what 
> was being hypothesized.  On the back cover of TMR the first reader 
> report excerpt quoted (from Hal French of the U. of South 
Carolina) 
> says this: "The author has transferred the discussion of 
Blavatsky's 
> sources from the realm of the mythical to the historical.  He has 
> given us a well-researched series of capsuled biographies of 
persons 
> from whom Blavatsky learned, and the nature of her relationships 
with 
> each of them.  His work brings reasoned conclusions into an area 
> characterized by vituperative and polarized scholarship.  He sets 
his 
> limits well.  He has not overstretched his mark nor made excessive 
> claims for his conclusions."  The same could be said for Joscelyn 
> Godwin whose Theosophical Enlightenment is intertwined with TMR in 
> several ways.
> 
> > Showing that ordinary people possess extraordinary potentials is 
a 
> > worthy study. Albeit, this was not Paul Johnson's objective, and 
he 
> > attempted only to identify ordinary people.  
> > 
> Not quite.  How ordinary these people were varies from case to 
case.  
> That several were highly regarded as adepts within specific 
> traditions testifies that they were not seen as ordinary by their 
> colleagues and associates.  It's just that their extraordinariness 
is 
> approached historically rather than religiously, as something to 
be 
> established (or rather defined) via evidence and reason rather 
than 
> ex cathedra pronouncements or reliance on scriptural authority.
> 
> Back to politics for a moment, I will just say that my books don't 
> portray HPB as someone who was motivated primarily by politics, 
but 
> rather as someone who was caught up in politics through her 
> associations with people in India, and lived to regret it.  After 
> leaving India, she appears to have renounced any involvement in 
> politics and even offered to become an informant on anti-British 
> activities she had learned about.  So it's not a simple yes/no 
> question as to whether she or her Masters were involved in 
politics.  
> Just as it's not a simple yes/no question as to whether the 
Masters 
> depicted in her writings were "real."  Some were a lot more real 
than 
> others, in terms of the amount of fictionalization involved.  No 
one 
> has ever doubted the reality of Dayananda; but Theosophists 
> conveniently forget that HPB and Olcott definitely regarded him in 
> the adept/Mahatma category when they went to India and only later 
> changed their opinion.  
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "robert_b_macd" 
> > <robert.b.macdonald@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Carlos,
> > > 
> > > Given what you have written and other interesting clues, I 
would 
> > like
> > > to offer a wildly speculative theory that nevertheless might 
have 
> > some
> > > truth in it.
> > > 
> > > It is clear that HPB was not interested in politics and was 
never 
> a
> > > spy for anyone.  It is also clear that the Masters were not 
> > ignorant
> > > of the political machinations going on in the World at that 
time.
> > > Their discussion of Jesuit plots in India being directed at a 
> > future 
> > > Britain (I believe this was around the Ilbert Bill) being a 
case 
> in
> > > point.  Their attempts to set up a Phoenix newspaper with 
Sinnet 
> as
> > > the editor is another example of their work to promote an 
organ of
> > > justice for the Indian masses.  Indeed, your discussion of Mr. 
> > Abdul 
> > > Ghafur and Pope Sixtus V indicates that HPB was not unaware of 
the
> > > dark forces of the political world and how they fit together 
> > through
> > > the centuries.  There is also some indication that St. Germain 
was
> > > involved with some of the noble families of Europe in an 
> unofficial
> > > advisory capacity.
> > > 
> > > It seems pretty clear that HPB was destined to found a Society 
of 
> > the
> > > nature of the TS.  Such a Society would have many enemies 
coming 
> > from
> > > many quarters.  One way to educate a leader of such a Society 
> > would be
> > > to have her travel around the world and introduced to lesser 
> adepts
> > > working in the world giving guidance to various movements 
> standing 
> > up
> > > against the dark power of tyranny in its many guises.  This 
> aspect 
> > of
> > > her education might leave a very sour taste in her mouth for 
the 
> > art
> > > of politics and explain why she wanted nothing to do with it.  
She
> > > could see it for what it was, two sides of the same coin 
battling
> > > against each other and controlled by the same puppet master.
> > > 
> > > What Paul may have stumbled on in his book "The Masters 
Revealed" 
> > is
> > > the people involved in HPB's education.  A world-wide network 
of 
> > men
> > > trying to inspire good people to stand up against tyranny.
> > > 
> > > The TS was created in order to seed the minds of humanity with 
the
> > > means to learn to think for themselves so that they too could 
> > begin to
> > > lift the political veil and see the tyranny that lies behind 
it.  
> > We
> > > are at a crisis point today.  In the same way that a herd of 
cows 
> > is
> > > comprised of cows, a true sovereign state would be comprised of
> > > sovereign citizens.  As the citizens of Western Democracies are
> > > manipulated into giving away their rights and freedoms 
(individual
> > > sovereignty), the Western Democratic state is moving towards 
> > tyranny.
> > > This whole theme is treated masterly in Plato's "Republic".   
> > Perhaps
> > > it would be interesting to take Paul's research and explore 
this 
> > theme.
> > > 
> > > Bruce
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso 
aveline"
> > > <carlosaveline@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Dear Bil, dear Paul, dear Friends,
> > > > 
> > > > I understand Paul is back to Theos-talk,  so this is 
addressed 
> to
> > > him, too.
> > > > 
> > > > I will answer now some of Bill's statements and questions 
below.
> > > > 
> > > > Years ago, I had one of Paul Johnson's books at my disposal, 
> > looked
> > > at it 
> > > > and decided
> > > > I was not interested.
> > > > 
> > > > Beside his recent correspondence, I have with me his 
> text "Madame
> > > Blavatsky, 
> > > > the 'Veiled Years' "
> > > > (T.H.C. London 1987).
> > > > 
> > > > I also have the "Review Essay" by John Algeo on his 
book "The 
> > Masters 
> > > > Revealed", published in "Theosophical History", July 1995. 
And I
> > > have the 
> > > > recent posting by Paul Johnson with the story of his 
relations 
> > with
> > > the TPH 
> > > > and John Algeo.
> > > > 
> > > > In that story,you will see that he had  fluid relations with 
> the 
> > USA
> > >  TPH 
> > > > for years. You will see that, according to Paul, and I 
quote ---
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > "" 'In Search of the Masters'  was surprisingly well 
received 
> in 
> > the
> > > > Theosophical world, and didn't receive many attacks. John
> > > > Algeo never indicated any discomfort with the book or desire 
to
> > > > squelch it. When I decided to revise and condense it in the
> > > > form of a series of biographical chapters, I offered it to 
TPH
> > > > and the answer was that they would consider it if I was 
willing
> > > > to remove or downplay the identifications of M., K.H., etc. 
and
> > > > focus mostly on the historical people themselves. This was in
> > > > 1992; I sent the Ms. in to Brenda Rosen who replied in 
essence,
> > > > "No, you completely rewrite it *first* and then we'll 
consider
> > > > it." I agreed to do so but the research led in other
> > > > directions and ultimately I informed her that I would not be
> > > > able to revise in the way she had requested. Not long after,
> > > > SUNY Press came through with a contract.
> > > > 
> > > > When "The Masters Revealed"  came out in 1994, I had no hard
> > > > feelings toward TPH, TUP, PLP or THF although it had been
> > > > disappointing that things fell through and that in no case 
did
> > > > I get any substantive feedback on the research (in a 
cumulative
> > > > 3.5 years of consideration!) I went to Wheaton the week it
> > > > was published, was very cordial with John and everyone there,
> > > > and felt that the book would be no less politely received 
than
> > > > its far inferior predecessor. After all the SUNY imprimatur
> > > > should bring some increased respect, no?
> > > > Then the positive reviews started flowing, in and outside of 
the
> > > > movement, and by February 1995 things had reached a peak of
> > > > welcoming reception, with the simultaneous appearance of a 
rave
> > > > in the New York Times Book Review and a favorable review by 
Joy
> > > > Mills in The Quest. I was so pleased by the latter that I 
sent
> > > > an email to John Algeo thanking him for letting it appear.
> > > > Here's where the story begins to turn sour.
> > > > John had sent me warm, encouraging, supportive email just a 
few
> > > > weeks before, saying to pay no mind to the hostile attacks I
> > > > was getting on theos-l from outraged Theosophists. And this
> > > > time, when I wrote thanking him for the Quest piece, he 
replied
> > > > in a friendly way, saying that he was glad I liked it but 
that
> > > > he had more reservations about the book than Joy did-- and 
that
> > > > he'd like to discuss it with me. My reply was that
> > > > reservations were of course warranted; that the book proved
> > > > HPB's association with Masters in one sense (that of
> > > > recognized experts in various spiritual traditions, from whom
> > > > she learned) but not in the other sense of spiritually 
advanced
> > > > beings with paranormal abilities, since that was beyond the
> > > > reach of historical research.""
> > > > 
> > > > So far, Paul's words.  End of quote.
> > > > 
> > > > From this point on, his narrative describes how John Algeo 
> turned
> > > against 
> > > > him. In the quotation above, you have what, in my opinion and
> > > assessment 
> > > > (and I respect other opinions)  corresponds  to an opening of
> > > territory to 
> > > > Paul Johnson's perspective about the Masters.
> > > > 
> > > > Since 1875, the theme of the Mahatmas as individuals has 
always 
> > been 
> > > > considered reserved, or PRIVATE,  for magnetic and other 
> reasons.
> > > > 
> > > > It is true that A. P. Sinnett started the vulgarization; 
> > Leadbeater
> > > went on; 
> > > > but since mid century some more care was taken. And sincere 
> > people,
> > > even if 
> > > > under serious illusions, have some respect if not devotion 
for 
> > the
> > > Masters 
> > > > and HPB.  Devotion can be accompanied by an open mind, as 
you 
> > may know.
> > > > 
> > > > It is from the viewpoint of aspirants to discipleship, then, 
or 
> > from
> > > the 
> > > > viewpoint of earnest and lifelong students of HPB/Masters,  
> that 
> > Paul 
> > > > Johnson's perspective tends to be a gross vulgarization of 
the 
> > idea of 
> > > > Adept-Teachers.
> > > > 
> > > > By now, I have reasons to believe that Paul Johnson is an 
honest
> > > person, and 
> > > > I respect that, since
> > > > I believe sincerity is of the essence and more important 
than 
> > one's
> > > ideas at 
> > > > the lower mental plane.
> > > > 
> > > > But if Paul Johnson never belonged to the inner 
organizations 
> of 
> > the
> > > Adyar 
> > > > Movement, and could not have a knowledge  or a "sense", 
let's 
> > say,
> > > of the 
> > > > real approach to the Mystery of aspiration to lay 
discipleship, 
> > that
> > > cannot 
> > > > be said of John Algeo, who helped open room for Johnson's 
books
> > > within the 
> > > > movement.
> > > > 
> > > > The long examination and summary Algeo makes of "The Masters
> > > Revealed" in 
> > > > "Theosophical History", July 1995, is itself an absurd, 
because 
> > of the 
> > > > totally naive  approach of the book with regard to the 
Masters 
> > and HPB.
> > > > 
> > > > The "name-by-name-discussion"  Algeo indulges in, with 
regard 
> to 
> > the 
> > > > "Masters' revelation",
> > > > would be hilarious if it were not too disgusting.
> > > > 
> > > > According to Algeo, Paul Johnson considers HPB a "Russian 
Spy", 
> > etc.
> > >  Well, 
> > > > she has written vehemently about that, explaining why 
Solovyof
> > > invented that 
> > > > lie. It is in her letters to Sinnett.
> > > > 
> > > > To give credit to a man like V. Solovyof ( a man whose 
personal
> > > "ethics"  
> > > > was similar to James Wedgwood's  in many ways, if you know 
what 
> I
> > > mean) -- 
> > > > and to deny HPB's words and evidences
> > > > that SHE WAS NOT A SPY  is more than a flagrant injustice to 
> > Truth,
> > > first, 
> > > > and to HPB and the movement, second.
> > > > 
> > > > Talking about that, discussing it without mentioning HPB's 
> > viewpoint
> > > and her 
> > > > words, is tantamount
> > > > to making libels circulate, in my view.
> > > > 
> > > > If Paul Johnson does not want to have respect for HPB and 
wants 
> > to
> > > sell a 
> > > > book saying she was a Spy, this is one thing.   He may say 
and 
> > write 
> > > > whatever he wants. But when the president of the Adyar TS in 
> the 
> > USA
> > > (now 
> > > > international vice-president) does the same, or helps this 
> > perspective 
> > > > circulate inside the movement, this is another, different 
thing.
> > > > 
> > > > I guess this is enough. If you see Algeo's "review", you will
> > > examine all 
> > > > purported "personal names" of the Mahatmas. John Algeo 
writes:
> > > > 
> > > > ""... Johnson's aim in this thesis to "identify' the Masters 
is
> > > reasonable 
> > > > and of considerable interest.""
> > > > (T.H.,  July 1995, p. 238).
> > > > 
> > > > And then Algeo goes on to discuss all minute,  useless and 
> > fanciful
> > > details 
> > > > of speculations about Adepts as if they were some historical 
> > characters 
> > > > completely immersed in present human Karma!!!
> > > > 
> > > > You see what I mean?
> > > > 
> > > > Algeo says, p. 245:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ""Johnson's thesis is a revisionist view of the Theosophical
> > > Masters, making 
> > > > them neither  what  Blavatsky and others said them to be  
nor 
> > sheer 
> > > > inventions, but rather elaborations of historically attested
> > > prototypes. 
> > > > That is a reasonable thesis to consider.""  ( T.H., JUly 
1995, 
> > p. 245).
> > > > 
> > > > Reasonable thesis ???
> > > > 
> > > > Such a thesis cannot be considered reasonable, in a 
Theosophical
> > > Society, 
> > > > because it shows a
> > > > complete absence of knowledge about what is an Adept.
> > > > 
> > > > That is why no Theosophical Publisher, as long  as I know, 
> > accepted
> > > Paul's 
> > > > books.  But their
> > > > ambiguity, their long examination of the originals, their 
long
> > > discussing 
> > > > these books, this is meaningful, and in this sense I say 
that 
> > Algeo
> > > (and 
> > > > others) used Paul and his books as a way to discredit HPB 
and 
> the
> > > Masters. 
> > > > And, of course, this was not honest with Paul, either.
> > > > 
> > > > As Gregory Tilletts biography of C. W. Leadbeater showed who 
> CWL 
> > was
> > > since 
> > > > the early 1980s,
> > > > it was "extremely convenient" for some theosophical 
cardinals 
> to 
> > put
> > > HPB at 
> > > > the same moral level as the "Bishop".
> > > > 
> > > > As to Daniel Caldwell / David Green, his websites published 
> > Paul's
> > > texts and 
> > > > books for a number of years, if I remember it right from one 
of 
> > Paul's 
> > > > postings at the  Theos-talk.  And, if you ask Paul, he will
> > > certainly agree 
> > > > that Daniel Caldwell and John Algeo are, or seem to be, most 
> > close
> > > allies. 
> > > > And I add: they share the same "editorial policy"...
> > > > 
> > > > Believing as I believe that Paul Johnson is a basically 
honest
> > > person, I 
> > > > hope he goes ahead and learns in the future something about 
the
> > > nature of 
> > > > spiritual teachers, be them Adepts or not.
> > > > 
> > > > Once he perceives the inner aspects and energies present in 
the 
> > HPB's 
> > > > writings, in the Mahatma Letters, and in other books and 
> > authors, he
> > > will 
> > > > understand what I and many theosophists
> > > > mean by the idea of "respect for H.P.B.".
> > > > 
> > > > I have some confidence in that, since Paul has shown here at
> > > Theos-talk that 
> > > > he is a man of good will.  I sincerely hope dialogue will 
bring 
> a
> > > better 
> > > > perspective about the Mystery of Initiates, whose identities 
> are 
> > NOT in 
> > > > their identity cards, so to say.
> > > > 
> > > > As to the pamphlet "Madame Blavatsky and the 'Veiled 
Years' ", 
> > by P. 
> > > > Johnson, it is very much in the same line as "The Masters 
> > Revelad".
> > >   Paul 
> > > > writes, page  7:
> > > > 
> > > > "There are two questions (...).The first concerns the 
relative
> > > genuiness of 
> > > > Gurdjieff and Blavatsky (...). Both may have been 
charlatans, 
> > with
> > > Gurdjieff 
> > > > merely exploiting the market created by  H.P.B. (...)."
> > > > 
> > > > And so he proceeds with several speculations of that same 
> > level...
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > But, as I said earlier, the real problem is not with Paul.  
He 
> > has my 
> > > > sincere good wishes and my respect, as you have, Bill.
> > > > 
> > > > Peace to all beings,
> > > > 
> > > > Best regards,   Carlos Cardoso Aveline
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > O o o O o o O o o O
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > >From: Bill Meredith <meredith_bill@>
> > > > >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >Subject: Re: Theos-World Carlos and the  "The Masters 
> > Revealed"???
> > > > >Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2006 17:16:57 -0500
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >carlosaveline cardoso aveline wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Bill,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I forgot to write that Paul Johson's books have a lot in 
> > common
> > > with 
> > > > >John
> > > > > > Algeos perspective.
> > > > > >
> > > > >Are you saying now that you have in fact read PJ's books 
and 
> > are no
> > > > >longer passing judgement based on what others have told you 
to 
> > think
> > > > >about them? Good for you then. No doubt you have also sat 
and 
> > talked
> > > > >with John Algeo for at least long enough to understand his 
> > perspective?
> > > > >Good for you again.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > There is a common lack of perception about the deeper 
> > aspects of the
> > > > > > Esoteric Philosophy.
> > > > > >
> > > > >This is your perspective. Could you give us some specific 
> > examples from
> > > > >your interaction with Johnson's books and Algeo's 
perspective 
> > that we
> > > > >could then examine for ourselves and perhaps either arrive 
at 
> a 
> > similar
> > > > >conclusion as yours or a different conclusion altogether.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > P.  Johnson (who was a Caldwell's and an Algeo's ally 
for 
> > years)
> > > will 
> > > > >not
> > > > > > discuss deep questions regarding the movement or the 
> > spiritual path.
> > > > > >
> > > > >Have you attempted to discuss deep questions with either of 
> > these
> > > > >individuals? Sorry, but to me it sounds like you really are 
> > saying that
> > > > >these individuals will not agree with your personally 
accepted 
> > answers
> > > > >to the deep questions regarding the movement or the 
spiritual 
> > path. If
> > > > >that is the case, feel free to add me to the list.
> > > > >
> > > > >Could you be more specific about your statement that 
Johnson, 
> > Caldwell,
> > > > >and Algeo were allies for years? I have not been privvy to 
any
> > > > >information that would lead me to this same conclusion 
unless 
> > you mean
> > > > >that these three were allied in their desire to shed some 
> > additional
> > > > >light on the deep questions regarding the movement or the 
> > spiritual
> > > > >path. Also, could you provide some idea of what you mean 
> > by "spiritual
> > > > >path"? Often such a phrase is used to divide our brothers 
into 
> > that
> > > > >group that is with us on "our" path and those that are not 
> with 
> > us and
> > > > >are therefore against us because they dare to tread a 
different
> > > > >spiritual path.
> > > > > > The difference is that Paul does not have a personal 
project
> > > involving
> > > > > > political power in the movement. An important 
difference, 
> by 
> > the
> > > way.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Do you have a personal project involving political power in 
the
> > > movement?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Yet -- a book called "The Masters Revealed" -- that is a
> > > disaster.  That 
> > > > >was
> > > > > > most convenient
> > > > > > to Algeo and to Caldwell -- for a time.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Can you explain why a book called "The Masters Revealed" is 
a 
> > disaster?
> > > > >Do you find it "disgusting" as well?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best regards,  Carlos.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > peace,
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >bill
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> From: Bill Meredith <meredith_bill@>
> > > > > >> Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > >> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > >> Subject: Re: Theos-World Aveline, Caldwell , Algeo & 
Dugpas
> > > > > >> Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2006 11:40:13 -0500
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> carlosaveline cardoso aveline wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooOO
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> An Adept-Teacher Explains:
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Libels Against HPB Were Made By Dugpas in Vatican and 
> > Bhutan.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> ARE DANIEL  CALDWELL AND JOHN ALGEO NOW
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> CONSCIOUSLY PUBLICIZING  THE WORK OF DUGPAS?
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooOO
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >> Another perspective:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Is Carlosaveline Cardoso Aveline now perpetuating the
> > > heightened public
> > > > > >> interest in the lies published about HPB through his 
> > extensive and
> > > > > >> relentless letter writing campaign protesting against 
the 
> > book
> > > LETTERS
> > > > > >> OF HPB and attacking Caldwell and Algeo as agents of 
> > dugpas?  Is 
> > > > >Aveline
> > > > > >> consciously drawing the attention of the public 
> > toward  "the libels
> > > > > >> against HPB"  and actually contributing to the 
increased 
> > sales and
> > > > > >> publicity of said book?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Methinks he doth protest too much.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > > > Copa 2006: Sabe como se diz `pênalti' em alemão? Clique 
> aqui!
> > > > > > http://copa.br.msn.com/extra/dicionario/l-z/
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > > Copa 2006: Já está na hora de saber o que é 
> `Freundschaftsspiel' 
> > Clique 
> > > > aqui! http://copa.br.msn.com/extra/dicionario/
> > > >
> > >
> >
>