Theos-Talk Archives (February 2006 Message tt00587)

Carlos,

I am not suggesting that the episode did not occur or that Annie 
Besant did not announce that she and others had attained Adepthood (I 
believe it was the fourth initiation she claimed). 

All I am saying is that CW Leadbeater had nothing to do with it. (If 
Besant claimed that Leadbeater was also an Adept, that is not his 
fault). Besant was really getting senile at that time, so I 
personally think, she can be forgiven (not so Arundell).

If Mary Lutyens told you privately that CWL was involved in the 
episode, we only have your word for it (and you seem to have an axe 
to grind).

If she wrote it somewhere, I would like the reference. 

I have read specifically that CWL was not involved in the episode and 
that he told Krishnamurthi that as far as he knew, Krishnamurthi was 
the only Adept around at that time. I read this either in one of Mary 
Lutyens books or maybe in Radha Sloss's book (neither of whom would 
want to defend CWL particularly).

Regards,

Dave

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso aveline" 
<carlosaveline@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Dave,
> 
> Thank you very much for your stimulating posting.
> 
> I see there seems to be an inner identity between your views and 
the views 
> of other persons with the same initial letter in their names:  
David (Green) 
> and Daniel (Caldwell). By some sort of coincidence, you came in the 
debate 
> immediately after Daniel's "disappearance".  Friends in need, 
friends 
> indeed?  I respect that. There is something sacred about friendship.
> 
> Perhaps you can convince  Daniel Caldwell, or David Green, to 
explain 
> whether David Green was, or not, invented  as a false person by 
Daniel 
> Caldwell.
> 
> As you know, truthfulness is really important, isn't it?  I will 
rely on you 
> in that. Paul Johnson's texts on Daniel's possible "secret agent 
work" to 
> cause harm to theosophical groups remain unanswered and 
unchallenged so far, 
> which is not good for  Daniel. He should clarify facts out of 
respect for 
> all of us,  here at Theos-Talk.
> 
> Let's see now the connection between Annie Besant's "Adepthood" and 
> Arundale's, and
> Wedgwood's, and Leadbeater's.
> 
> Well, Mary Lutyens  (a historian, not a pseudonym) is the source of 
that 
> information and her books were not contradicted by  leaders or 
> thinkers/historians  at Adyar.
> 
> It was Mary Lutiens who narrated the episode. Not me.
> 
> Annie Besant, in August 1925, humbly announced she had attained the 
FIFTH 
> GREAT
> INITIATION and included several others in the annoncement, 
including 
> Arundale, Leadbeater and Wedgwood.
> 
> Crazy years those were, in which a few "initiates" went mad soon 
after 
> attaining Adepthood.
> 
> Your commentaries?
> 
> Dear Dave, I hope you help us find the truth about the history of 
the 
> theosophical moment,
> so that we can move on and far beyond all this network of lies and 
> illusions.  I am sure you can help us in that. You see, it's never 
late.  If 
> you are a friend of Mr. John Algeo's, why not telling him he is 
still in 
> time to change for the better?
> 
> Law of Karma is on the side of Truth Eternal!   And there is 
nothing outside 
> Karma Law.
> 
> Peace to all beings,
> 
> Best & fraternal  regards,   Carlos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >From: "soulsurvivor7771" <pathinfo@...>
> >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Theos-World Re: The Origin of Annie Besant's Adepthood
> >Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 15:54:33 -0000
> >
> >Senor Carlos is at it again. This time he is trying to discredit 
CWL
> >by insinuating that CWL had something to do with Annie
> >Besant's 'Adepthood' announcement - that CWL was really 
the 'Origin'.
> >
> >In fact, Leadbeater had nothing to do with it at all. The Adepthood
> >story was concocted by George Arundell while Leadbeater was in
> >Australia. George may have thought it up himself or got it from 
this
> >Wedgwood person. In any case, Leadbeater did not believe the story.
> >When Krishnamurthi questioned him about it, Leadbeater said (in so
> >many words) that Krishnamurthi was the only Arhat he was aware of
> >(that Krishnamurthi was indeed an Arhat has been confirmed by 
others).
> >
> >To suggest that CWL was somehow responsible for this sorry episode 
is
> >spreading lies about someone who has done a lot to advance the 
cause
> >of Theosophy albeit by unconventional means. Mr. Carlos needs to 
read
> >his sources more carefully and stop making connections (between
> >Leadbeater and Arundell's Adepthood) that don't exist.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Dave
> >
> >(I had better get out of here quick, Mr Psionics is coming after 
me :-
> >))
> >
> >
> >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso aveline"
> ><carlosaveline@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > FRIENDS,
> > >
> > > below, a letter to a fellow truth-seeker whow wrote to me
> >complaining
> > > about the significant number of controversies in the 
Theosophical
> >Movement.
> > > Carlos.
> > >
> > >
> > > ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> > >
> > > Dear  Friend,
> > >
> > > Brotherly friendship and understanding need freedom and 
diversity.
> > >
> > > It is important that you read Letter 120, Mahatma Letters,
> >Chronological
> > > Edition, on the London Lodge Crisis. (I do not remember the 
Letter
> >number in
> > > non-cronological editions).
> > >
> > > It was written by a Mahatma after consulting with his own Master
> >about
> > > theosophical controversies.  The essence of the Letter  is that,
> >according
> > > to the Masters,  the contrast of views and opinions,
> > > once they are sincere, must be freely exercized and even 
preserved
> >from
> > > hypocritical make-belief and outer harmony.
> > >
> > > It coincides with a famous poem written by English poet 
Alexander
> >Pope,
> > > which says (and I quote the idea, no the words themselves):
> > >
> > > "Every disharmony is a harmony that you cannot understand yet".
> > >
> > > So true harmony will never emerge from repressing diversity and
> >true
> > > contrast in nature.
> > >
> > > Thought monoculture is as disastrous as agricultural 
monoculture.
> > >
> > > Thought diversity in the mind world is as important as 
biodiversity
> >in
> > > natural environment.
> > >
> > > The great treason, conscious or unconscious, promoted by CWL 
and A.
> >Besant
> > > against the
> > > HPB Mission (a Mission, by the way,  which is NOT limited to the
> >19th
> > > century) was to create rituals as a way of establishing an
> >uniformity of
> > > thought under their own popish control.
> > >
> > > Now, there is a difference between contrast, frankness, 
dversity,
> >and
> > > hatred, enmity and the like.
> > >
> > > It is by puting on the table and freely examining the failures 
of
> >the
> > > movement as a whole (and
> > > occultly Adyar is NOT separated from the rest of the movement),
> >that we will
> > > gradually eliminate all bitter feelings among us.
> > >
> > > I do not have access to Internet from my Library, but I can tell
> >tomorrow
> > > you the number of the Letter 120 in the other editions of the
> >Mahatma
> > > Letters. Tell me if you want that.
> > >
> > > And, by the way, if you study the M.  Letters you will see that
> >CWL's
> > > writings have nothing to see
> > > with the Mahatmas' teachings.
> > >
> > > AND  --- do you happen to know that CWL was never admitted to 
the
> >Esoteric
> > > School founded by H.P.B.?
> > >
> > > He received a couple of letters from the Mahatmas, yes, but 
soon he
> >was out
> > > of focus. He never was admitted to the HPB's inner school.
> >Instead, he was
> > > busy having mediumnistic "chats" with imaginary Masters  in
> >the 'inner
> > > circle' of Mr. A. P. Sinnett, in London.  A. Besant also took 
part,
> >there,
> > > right after HPB's death.  (See Mr. A.P. Sinnett Memoirs.)  And 
soon
> >the
> > > nonsense began.
> > >
> > > Then CWL became the source of Mrs. A.Besant "contact" with her 
own
> >imaginary
> > > Masters.
> > >
> > > It was in this way that Besant finnally anounced, in 1925  that 
she
> >had
> > > attained Adepthood, as
> > > I have documented here while illustrating the life of Mr. James
> >Wedgwood,
> > > the founder of the Liberal Catholic Church and another
> >Adyar "Adept" in
> > > 1925.   The inquestionable source is Mary Lutyens, J.
> >Krishnamurti's
> > > biographer.
> > >
> > > It's History.  These are documented facts. As a source, A.P.
> >Sinnett was
> > > never questioned.
> > >
> > > He was international vice-president under Annie Besant, and 
close
> >friends
> > > with CWL and her until he died.
> > >
> > > I have all the data and can bring them all here to you.  I 
believe
> >it is
> > > indeed important that we
> > > understand the origin of all the "clairvoyant" fancies in order 
to
> > > understand them and then to GET RID OF THEM.
> > >
> > >
> > > I hope you have the patience to stand the "ugly truths" we must
> >accept,
> > > examine and learn from, in order to go ahead to the next step.
> > >
> > >
> > > Best regards,  Carlos Cardoso Aveline
> > >
> > > 
_________________________________________________________________
> > > Facilite sua vida: Use o Windows Desktop Search e encontre 
qualquer
> >arquivo
> > > ou e-mail em seu PC. Acesse:  http://desktop.msn.com.br
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Ligações gratuitas de PC-para-PC para qualquer lugar do Brasil e do 
mundo 
> com o  MSN Messenger. Saiba mais em   
> http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/default2.aspx?locale=pt-br
>