Theos-Talk Archives (February 2006 Message tt00256)

Dear Carlos,

I have spent huge numbers of hours explaining my research and books, 
mostly to very hostile challenging questioners, here at theos-talk.  
There is nothing much to show for all that time and energy, sorry to 
say, except for archives and the material on Katinka's site.  I will, 
as the time becomes available, put up some links to all those 
voluminous explanations this week.  But will not get sucked into 
writing fresh explanations and defenses--especially not when Daniel 
is using that to try to deflect you from your interest in his online 
behavior.

Sorry, no disrespect intended but I must set a simple limit: I won't 
explain or defend my books on HPB to anyone who has not read them.  
There is a bottomless poisoned well of misunderstandings and 
mischaracterizations out there, and I could spend the rest of my life 
trying to un-poison the water.  With zero results.  

I will post one more item about this, and some linkes, but then will 
have to unsubscribe for a while as my concentration on a current 
project is quite ruined by all this controversy..

Best wishes,

Paul

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso aveline" 
<carlosaveline@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> DISCIPLESHIP:
> 
> ANSWERS AND QUESTIONS TO
> DANIEL CALDWELL AND PAUL JOHNSON
> 
> Daniel,
> 
> Thanks for the opportuniy you provide me by sending us this 
excerpts of Paul 
> Johnson's texts.
> 
> I was interested in knowing what he thinks about Masters/HPB.
> 
> As I take you are interested in provoking discord between Paul and 
the rest 
> of us,  I understand you made an able selection of those Paul's 
positions 
> which are less agreable to my view.
> 
> I will consider you copied the paragraphs correctly and comment 
them below, 
> most briefly and in an incomplete way.
> 
> 1) STATEMENT ONE:
> 
> >HPB told at least four distinct versions of her acquaintance with
> >the Master she met in her youth in London. . . . With four mutually
> >contradictory versions of the same character, all that can be
> >concluded is that most if not all of HPB's stories about him were 
FALSE.
> 
> CCA: Every true disciple has to protect the privacy of the magnetic 
link 
> with the Master.
> For magnetic reasons. The link is too sensitive to be exposed to 
the average 
> mental vibrations. THIS is  true. But Paul's conclusion that 
because a 
> disciple clouds his relation with his source of inspiration,
> then everything he says has to be false --   this is a wrong 
conclusion to 
> my view.
> 
> Of course, I think theosophists should respect  Paul's right to 
think and 
> say what he likes about  disciples and masters.  Besides, he is not 
creating 
> false persons to attack the theosophical movement. He is not lying, 
cheating 
> or using false names, as long as I know.  As I wrote before, the 
Masters are 
> NOT interested in millions of people believing too seriously in 
their 
> existence (that would be harmful to their work).  They must be 
understood in 
> their own level of consciousness, not "believed in".  So, if Paul 
> desbelieves of them, he is part of this broad equation of search 
for the 
> Truth,  and I am glad to discuss this with him as long as he is 
honest. And 
> I have no reasons to question his sincerity so far.
> 
> >STATEMENT TWO:
> >
> >...much of HPB's portrayal of Morya and Koot Hoomi was designed TO
> >MISLEAD in order to protect their privacy....
> 
> CCA: An exaggeration, I think.  The limitation I may see in Paul's 
work (I 
> hope he helps us clarify his vision of this)  is in his premises.  
The false 
> premise is that "everything which cannot be understood through the 
logical , 
> successive and linear brain-hemisphere is then necessarily false".  
But more 
> important than this, Daniel, is that YOU must tell us something 
about your 
> close friend David Green. Is he but a fraud, a bad trick you are 
trying to 
> play on us all?  Could you clarify that,  please? I am sure you 
have the 
> intellectual courage to do that and I am confident you will, thanks.
> 
> 
> STATEMENT THREE:
> >
> >If I can prove to the satisfaction of many scholars that Mme.
> >Blavatsky FICTIONALIZED her Masters, and that the personae of Morya
> >and Koot Hoomi are covers for other people, that does not detract
> >one iota from the truth of the spiritual principles enunciated by
> >her or the alleged Masters.
> 
> CCA:
> 
> Paul writes as if HPB was the only source of information about the 
Masters. 
> There were dozens of full disciples and lay disciples giving PUBLIC 
> testimonies about them. Olcott, Judge, Mohini, Laura, Damodar --  
dozens.
> 
> But a Master is truly at the Buddhic level, 5D not 3D. So as his 
energy gets 
> to the personality level of the disciple an outer mental/emotional 
image of 
> the Master he is "created" into the personal world of that disciple 
or lay 
> disciple. But TRUE discipleship occurs only between the buddhic 
level of the 
> disciple's heart and the Masters.
> 
> Commentaries, Paul?
> 
> Diferent disciples and lay disciples will have most different views 
of the 
> same source of inspiration, in their personalities. Discipleship 
and Masters 
> are essentially impossible to understand with the help of words 
only. Words 
> and reasoning can only provide us with some useful metaphors 
pointing at the 
> MYSTERY of true blessing.   I ask Paul to think it over, to 
meditate,  and 
> then comment.
> 
> So to accuse HPB of fictionalizing is, itself,  a product of an 
old  
> FICTION,  according to which, that which is not three-dimensional, 
3D,  does 
> not exist.
> 
> Yet, Paul does NOT to have to think like me for me to respect him. 
If it 
> were not for him, I would not have the chance to share my views on 
> discipleship  in out Theos-talk. So honest desbelievers help our 
common 
> investigation...   AND ---  Paul is not using fraud.  He is a human 
being, 
> hence,  he can learn and evolve like anyone of us.
> 
> 
> STATEMENT FOUR:
> >
> >In 1880, the Mahatmas' letters were full of geographical references
> >to Punjab and Kashmir. But in the next few years, a cover story
> >about their residence in a Tibetan ashram was promoted and a number
> >of FALSE testimonies concocted [by HPB?] as a diversionary
> >tactic. . . .
> >
> 
> CCA:  Again, either Paul is the great disciple who knows everything 
about 
> what is true and false
> with regard to the Masters, or then he cannot  have this 
information, since 
> everybody knows  that
> only secrecy can protect the true sdpiritual work from TROLLERS, 
from 
> persecutors, from Vatican paid secret agents, from liars, from 
libellers, 
> etc.  Every mystic since humanity exist had  and has to use secrecy 
( not 
> lies) as to inner links and also an open dialogue and on the art of 
living, 
> on discipleship in general, etc. Sincerity is of the essence.
> 
> Now, since it seems Paul is not in good terms with any Vatican-paid 
secret 
> agents, he is NOT in the broad category of Solovyofs, Coulombs, 
etc., and so 
> on.
> 
> Desbelievers always deserved, and they had,  ALL and DEEP respect 
from 
> Masters, Disciples and Lay Disciples. EVER.
> 
> We have to protect the right of people to disbelief and to doubt 
because --  
> and this is a KEY!  -- Those Who FREELY Doubt Today Will Freely SEE 
The 
> Truth By Themselves Tomorrow.   No constraint should be used by us, 
then, 
> against Paul Johnson or anyone who doubts Masters and HPB honestly.
> Should we make a critical examination of  Paul's  work?  Yes. Let's 
see, 
> then.
> 
> Is he being honest? Is he inventing false personae to atack the 
movement?  
> Is he divulging proven Libels as if they were part of the 
theosophical 
> literature?  No, Daniel. No.  Or would you tell us that Paul is a 
deceiver, 
> using false names to attack any theosophical groups?   Will you 
kindly 
> answer, my respected Daniel?
> 
> 
> I guess the rest of Daniel's message is less relevant by now.  I 
fraternally 
> and respectfully ask Paul's comments on this, above.  But I also do 
ask Paul 
> two other questions:
> 
> 1) How would you, Paul, interpret Daniel's silence on his possible 
fraud by 
> creating  a false "theosophist", named "Mr. David Green"?
> 
> 2) Have, in your view, Daniel commited other frauds, creating other 
false 
> persons?  Does he have any false personality who specializes in 
attacking 
> other persons and authors?  Did he created a variety of David 
Green, another 
> personality involving in criticizing your own work, Paul?
> 
> 
> Peace to all beings and  thanks to you all, friends in the Theos-
net.  May 
> we seek for Truth in
> Peace and accept and confront the inevitable challenges while we 
keep peace 
> in our minds!
> 
> 
> 
> Best regards,  Carlos Cardoso Aveline.
> 
> 
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
oooooo
> 
> >From: "danielhcaldwell" <danielhcaldwell@...>
> >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Theos-World To Carlos Aveline:  You may believe anything 
or 
> >everything Paul Johnson has....
> >Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 06:25:52 -0000
> >
> >To Mr. Carlos Aveline:
> >
> >You may believe anything or everything Mr. Johnson has
> >written or stated.
> >
> >For example maybe you are now even having second thoughts and are
> >ready to accept and believe the following statements which Mr.
> >Johnson has written, had published and promoted:
> >
> >STATEMENT ONE:
> >
> >HPB told at least four distinct versions of her acquaintance with
> >the Master she met in her youth in London. . . . With four mutually
> >contradictory versions of the same character, all that can be
> >concluded is that most if not all of HPB's stories about him were
> >FALSE.
> >
> >STATEMENT TWO:
> >
> >...much of HPB's portrayal of Morya and Koot Hoomi was designed TO
> >MISLEAD in order to protect their privacy....
> >
> >STATEMENT THREE:
> >
> >If I can prove to the satisfaction of many scholars that Mme.
> >Blavatsky FICTIONALIZED her Masters, and that the personae of Morya
> >and Koot Hoomi are covers for other people, that does not detract
> >one iota from the truth of the spiritual principles enunciated by
> >her or the alleged Masters.
> >
> >STATEMENT FOUR:
> >
> >In 1880, the Mahatmas' letters were full of geographical references
> >to Punjab and Kashmir. But in the next few years, a cover story
> >about their residence in a Tibetan ashram was promoted and a number
> >of FALSE testimonies concocted [by HPB?] as a diversionary
> >tactic. . . .
> >
> >CAPS ADDED IN THE ABOVE STATEMENTS.
> >
> >In light of these four statements, how does Mr. Johnson view the
> >following written by H.P. Blavatsky and Master Koot Hoomi?
> >
> >In a letter to A.P. Sinnett (dated Oct. 9, 1882), H.P.B. recounts
> >her visit with Masters K.H and M. in Sikkim:
> >
> >"Oh the blessed blessed two days! It was like the old times....The
> >same kind of wooden hut, a box divided into three compartments for
> >rooms, and standing in a jungle on four pelican's legs....the same
> >eternal `gul-gul-gul' sound of my Boss's [Morya's] inextinguishable
> >chelum pipe; the old familiar sweet voice of your KH (whose voice 
is
> >still sweeter and face still thinner and more transparent)....."
> >(The Letters Of H.P. Blavatsky To A.P. Sinnett, 1925, p. 38)
> >
> >In a letter to Sinnett (received Oct., 1882), Master K.H. himself
> >describes this same visit:
> >
> >"I do not believe I was ever so profoundly touched by anything I
> >witnessed in all my life, as I was with the poor old creature's
> >[HPB's] ecstatic rapture, when meeting us recently both in our
> >natural [physical] bodies...Even our phlegmatic M[orya] was thrown
> >off his balance, by such an exhibition---of which he was chief 
hero.
> >He had to use his power, and plunge her into a profound sleep,
> >otherwise she would have burst some blood-vessel....in her 
delirious
> >attempts to flatten her nose against his riding mantle besmeared
> >with the Sikkim mud!...." (The Mahatma Letters, Letter No. 92 in 
the
> >new chronological edition; Letter No. 54 in the 2nd, and 3rd
> >editions.)
> >
> >According to Johnson's views of "cover-up" and "disinformation," it
> >would appear H.P.B.'s visit with these two Masters in Sikkim never
> >happened.
> >
> >In other words, Mr. Johnson is claiming and promoting the idea that
> >Blavatsky and "Koot Hoomi" were lying to Sinnett when they wrote 
the
> >above letters.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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