Theos-Talk Archives (August 2005 Message tt00028)

8/8/2005 5:41 AM

Dear Friend:

I insert some notes below in your text.

Hope it satisfies.

Dallas
 
========================================

-----Original Message-----
From: M. Sufilight
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 8:12 AM
To: 
Subject: RE: Gregory's biggest mistake in life

Hallo Dallas and all,

My views are:

Interesting answer Dallas. Thanks.

But if your comments in the below are in accordance with truth, I think we
will have to ask whether your presentation of the theosophical teachings it
is in accordance with a teaching which has considered the importance of
taking - the place, TIME, people involved and spiritual needs of the process
- into account.

1. MS
There are several interesting aspects in the below comments written by
Dallas.
You write interestingly about "facts" and "opinion".

I would like to add my view:

MS
What is a "fact" to some readers, are only an "opinion" to others.
And this we all aught to consider carefully in our exchanges.
Some readers understand this and others do not.

========================

DTB	Quite true. FACTS can be tested.  
Opinions either agree with FACTS or they do not.

===================================


2.	MS
Dallas wrote in the below about THEOSOPHY:
"It provides history, logic and an altruistic "Goal" that all can recognize,
test and use if found to be valid."

My Sufilight answer:
Yes. Dallas, but in what manner does THEOSOPHY do that?

=======================================

DTB	Read ISIS UNVEILED and The SECRET DOCTRINE also: HPB's articles.
Form your own opinion as to their accuracy and value.  

I give them a high mark. I have found nothing to equal them in quality and
range so far.

Everyone is free to make their own efforts t understand and value.

There are no final "authorities" except the FACTS of Laws and Living that we
are all subject to.

==========================================

MS
And almost the same could be asked about with some of the other statements 
of yours in the below.


MS
The next questions of mine - I do find to be very important.

MS
First. Are the various "teachers" or "emailers" - Dallas and Morten 
included - presenting THEOSOPHY in a manner, which are both in accordance 
with the Place, TIME, People involved spiritual needs of the process, -
(And not merely the spiritual Wants of the proces.) ?

=====================================

DTB	each has to form their own conclusions. The power to discriminate
is a common one and can be universally and impersonally applied.

The value of any ethical or moral statement is to be decided by the
individual.

=============================================

MS
If not, what are they/we then missing?

Is it a more wise relation to multi-cultural values, which are lacking?
Is it the crystallizing of the cultural focus? [ NO ]

Is it the clash between the Middle East vs. the West, Iran vs. 
Washington/London ?	[NO, UNIMPORTANT AND TRANSITORY ]

Is it the heavy use of old books and quotes from them instead of new ones 
adapted more to our present time? [ YES, FOR THE PATIENT ]

Is it a lack of focus on what the Seven Keys are, and "dead-letter" reading 
and teaching? [ YES AND NO -- DECISIONS ARE TO BE BASED ON VALUE AND
POSSIBLE APPLICATION ]

Are we missing the teacher wich HPB foretold should come? [ WE ARE OUR OWN
TEACHERS. THE ATMA (Spirit) IS WITHIN EACH OF US, AND IS NOT SEPARATE FROM
THE SPIRIT IN ANY OTHER BEING. ]

Are the translations of certain writings to non-english languages creating a

problem? [YES ]

If we are not missing anything, - are we then blind to the truth like the 
pharisees? [ I THINK WE WANDER FROM A GRASP OF THE BASICS -- THEN THERE IS
CONFUSION Can we define what the basics are -- as we can in mathematics?
VIRTUES and VERITIES remain constant through the centuries and are
unaffected by "cultures." It is our impatience that defeats us, especially
when directed towards our own selfish self. ]

MS
"About finding fault with others" - and the Bhagavad Gita quote in the below

by Dallas.

It is of course not a good idea to find faults with others if your motive is

a bad one.

But if your motive is a compassionate one, then your are helpful to the 
individual and cosmos.

How can we help people at all, if their faults are not corrected in a 
certain manner?

=========================================

DTB	Certainly we cannot correct others' faults. We may point to them
and bear the consequences. But the pest way is to present the VERITIES and
the VIRTUES which are ageless. Let people draw their own conclusions.

For example: take a class of school-children: Some are bright and
interested in learning everything, then there is a group that has their own
specially selected range of interests -- and they limit themselves and may
augment their isolation; but the majority are indifferent or resentful, and
would rather be amused, distracted and not be bothered -- they cannot
foresee the future well. Others are totally disinterested and recalcitrant.
Without Karma and Reincarnation these differences of attitude are
incomprehensible. The Teacher always has problems dealing with those who are
selfish and careless and who ae not compassionate or brotherly.

Cultural sources, differences and apparent values have to be tested by the
IDEALS that are being discussed and focussed on.

In final resolution: Either we are all brother Souls or we are not.  

BROTHERHOOD is a fact to be used and worked on constantly or it is not.

What is "higher" than TRUTH ?


DTB	It seems to me that if each individual is in essence an eternal and
undying Pilgrim, the spiritual SELF within has to be allowed by the embodied
"mind" to make a decision and give help. I have not found that any
"outside" help is ever fully satisfactory. It may give direction but all
final choices have to be independently made by each individual for
themselves, time after time. 

It is the Universal LAW that finds fault, and not any person or any Avatar.

Truth is eternal because it is changeless and the age or language in which
it is expressed is immaterial. Why this craze for something "new?" -- when
the "old" is still not grasped and understood, or applied ? Where does
impatience arise?

==============================================

MS
(Sometimes I think that one only aught to read the Bhagavad Gita in Sanskrit

or on the Akasha level. All these problematic translations of the Bhagavad 
Gita can be a nusiance to us all. Take for instance also the words 
"demoniacal dispositions".) [ WHERE VICE RESIDES ]

3.
Dallas wrote:
"What are the BASICS ?

In the past 130 years we have still got "originals" of the TEXTS as well as
photographic copies of those "originals," and, in addition, we have had
these "originals" placed on Internet and CDs, so anyone can have and use
them. "

My Sufilight answer:
But Dallas all your talk about "original texts" seem almost Jesuit like,
does it not?
Theosophy is not Bible study is it? The Secret Doctrine is not a Bible is 
it?

====================================

DTB	Study is NOT book reading. I have no idea of Jesuit training or
objectives, but from all accounts their "members of that order" are fanatics
in the area of VICE.

The value of The SECRET DOCTRINE is inherent. If you don't study then you
are ignorant as to its contents. If I wish to study Sufi teachings, (which
I have) I go to the writings of the great Sufi masters and poets.

=================================

MS
Mere book reading will not help the Seeker reach the most high level of 
liberation at the "highest abode", the abode of the Avatar.(Try Bhagavad
Gita by Sir Edwin Arnold, Chapter 8, v16-22)

More is CLEARLY needed.
I agree, that the Seeker and Student will have to learn to think on a higher

level and develop. And that is important.

And that is why it is important how the teachings are being formulated today

2005, now 30 years since the arrival of the teacher foretold by Blavatsky. A
teacher which has not been named yet.

The teachings has to be formulated in accordance with the Place, TIME, 
People involved spiritual needs of the process, -(And not merely the 
spiritual Wants of the proces.)

========================================

DTB	Then we have to be patient and wait, and in the meantime we ought to
study and apply the VIRTUES we are able to understand and respect.

========================================


from
M. Sufilight
(I would like to add, that a number of people read emails or other scripts. 
And a few weeks later they have forgotten about the content.)




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval14@earthlink.net>
To: "AA-BNStudy" <study@blavatsky.net>
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 2:49 PM
Subject: Theos-World RE: Gregory's biggest mistake in life


August 1, 2005

Dear Friends:

The subjoined comments appear in the main useful and correct.

Let us however observe that THEOSOPHY is as old as Mankind.

It provides history, logic and an altruistic "Goal" that all can recognize,
test and use if found to be valid.

It is not "congregational." It does not seek numbers of "politically
correct" adherents.

It seeks to keep the record of ancient Laws, Rules and objectives alive and
prominent for those who seek them to find and use.

Those who assist in this do not seek any recognition of followers. They
present what they have discovered, honestly, accurately, and openly, having
only respect for facts and not for individuals and their "opinions."

The principle is: "And that power the disciple shall covet is that which
will make him appear as the least among men." {LIGHT ON THE PATH p. 4}

THEOSOPHY provides its own validation. But to be able to know and use it
the student/disciples have to study it. This aspect of the link is vital,
since any advance or improvement in the nature, capacity and character of
those who approach THEOSOPHY is self-generated.

It is here that the motto of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY is to be invariably
applied: "There is no Religion higher than TRUTH."

No amount of money, or public display of loyalty, and the following of
rites, rituals and ceremonies (and altered texts) helps.

All the self-reform is interior and within the conscious intelligence (MIND)
of each disciple. This is real "key to occultism." It is firmly grasped by
every aspirant. Opening the 16th Chapter of the BHAGAVAD GITA, Sri Krishna
says:

"Fearlessness, sincerity, assiduity in devotion, generosity, self-restraint,
piety, and alms-givings, study, mortification, and rectitude; harmlessness,
veracity, and freedom from anger, resignation, equanimity, and not speaking
of the faults of others, universal compassion, modesty, and mildness;
patience, power, fortitude, and purity, discretion, dignity,
unrevengefulness, and freedom from conceit— these are the marks of him whose
virtues are of a godlike character, O son of Bharata.

Those, O son of Pritha, who are born with demoniacal dispositions are marked
by hypocrisy, pride, anger, presumption, harshness of speech, and ignorance.


The destiny of those whose attributes are godlike is final liberation, while
those of demoniacal dispositions, born to the Asuras' lot, [suffer]
continued bondage to mortal birth; grieve not."

It is for this reason that the THREE FUNDAMENTALS of THEOSOPHY are to be
learned, tested, and applied to anything that is claimed to be theosophical
or even non-theosophical.

For the mentally lazy and those who are "obtuse," Theosophy has nothing to
offer. For those who are in search of TRUTH and the answers to the gaps of
knowledge that our present-day education or erudition displays (in the
sciences. academies and religious bodies everywhere) THEOSOPHY offers the
HISTORY [S D I 267 top] of all antiquity and the cumulated research of
the greatest Sages of the World -- it progenitors, supervisors and
continuing mentors: The Masters of Wisdom.

What are the BASICS ?

In the past 130 years we have still got "originals" of the TEXTS as well as
photographic copies of those "originals," and, in addition, we have had
these "originals" placed on Internet and CDs, so anyone can have and use
them.

We have a catalog of laws, facts truths which anyone can verify - which
demand no credulity and seek no "faith" or masses of "adherents."

Everything rests upon a FOUNDATION. What of this does THEOSOPHY offer?

If we were (all who are interested) to meet together at one of the ancient
circular theatres where the "stage" is in the center we might expect to find


1 In the center of the stage a Golden glow indicating the Ancient
Lodge. We are not able to discern anyone clearly therein through that
curtain of light.

2 At its rim (for us to see) are H P B, Olcott and Judge. They hold
the
"original writings and teachings of THEOSOPHY" in their hands. To them as
assistants came Subba Row, Damodar, Jasper Niemand, the Keightleys, Mead,
Crooks, Cleather, and others.

3 The rest of us - their students sit in the circular rows around that
"Stage"

4 We all have got the same books available to us as they were
originally written. Those who have and use them sit near the front facing
the stage. Those who fail to study or use corrupted books and texts sit
further back.

5 As we move around the seats and go towards the back we may note in
this imaginary forum that not all have the original texts, or "foundation"
books, or do not read or study them very often. They are responsible for
their various "opinions," confusingly dispensed.

6 Some we note have substituted for the basic books, interpretations
and manuals that " abbreviate" or "explain." And it is they who have decided
to consider the authors of those altered texts as "authorities" valuable and
sound, but, but they have not verified this for themselves. Their
carelessness or laziness and lack of accuracy, is passed on and usually
given great importance until such time as someone confronts it with facts
and truths. By that time it is painful to have to retract and redefine
one's so far well supported opinions. [In the world of Science, we find the
Darwinists and those who foreshorten the vast periods of time needed for
actual change and evolutionary development are at war with the facts of time
provided by current discoveries that indicate a far vaster antiquity for
eras and events. It is a problem that has to do with the honesty and
character of those involved. Not with the actual facts of discovery, which
in some cases, we find have been suppressed or concealed -- as earlier
hypotheses and theories are found progressively invalidated.]

7. The whole theatre cannot hold the rest of those interested in
THEOSOPHY who have come to it through the agency of the books in Libraries,
talks, the Media presentations, Internet and recordings on CDs. But this
number has expanded the penetration of theosophical ideas and doctrines
enormously.

And so on.

As we continue our round we find that there are groups forming among those
who attend where particular books (not necessarily the "originals") are and
have been chosen for that community of members or students, for their
selected study and attention.

We also notice that the original organization the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY
founded Nov. 17, 1875 in New York has become sub-divided. When HPB and Col.
Olcott moved to work in India at the beginning of 1879, it was Col. Olcott
who declared that the Headquarters of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY would be
wherever he resided. This was accepted (but no Resolution at the Original,
Founding Society in New York was ever so passed).

There is th reason and basis for a THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY that calls itself
"International" and uses "Adyar" as a HQ. It has a number of National
Sections, and many independent Branches and even independent THEOSOPHICAL
SOCIETIES. [The London Lodge (President: Mr. A. P. Sinnett), and the T S
Lodge in Edmonton, Canada, are an example of this kind of affiliated
independence. Some Sections have been excommunicated by the Adyar H Q: The
USA, Germany, Denmark, Canada, etc...]

There is another THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY with branches in America, and
elsewhere, that refers to "Pasadena" as their H Q. There is a dispersed and
informal group that call themselves "associates of U L T," and while they
have a number of independent Lodges and Study Groups, they have no "center."
They employ the "Original Teachings of THEOSOPHY" as a basis for their
common work and progressing study.

Notice ought to be made for comparison of current Magazines published by the
various T S es. A comparison of their articles and contents reveals the
nature of the force behind those efforts. Additionally several E-ZINES
(Internet Magazines), such as THEOS-WORLD, AQUARIAN THEOSOPHIST, are being
regularly issued.

While this "situation report" is obviously brief, shortened and inaccurate
in detail, it can give us something to think about.

The main idea to dwell on I think is: "Am I studying "original" THEOSOPHY
or am I studying something filtered by another's thoughts and ideas?

Best wishes,

Dallas


====================================

-----Original Message-----
From: M. Sufilight
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 12:33 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Gregory's biggest mistake in life

Hallo all,

My views are:

Thanks to Dallas and other replies.

And now we have:

CONNECTIONS BETWEEN THE ESOTERICAL AND THEOSOPHICAL TEACHINGS
(PART 2)


"
Q: How is it known to the participants of such a group as to how
accurate or meaningful their theosophical 'work' is?

A: There are no two ways about it. Either it is known to their
teacher, if one still exists, in which case he will remedy defects,
and they will not be perpetuated. Or it is totally repetitious, and
the effort has become an - administrative - one. This happen when
there has been no true succession of teaching, so that there is
nobody at the top sufficiently developed to be able to diagnose
the situation. In this case the group has become to a greater or
lesser degree a prisoner of the automatism of the formal world.


Q: Does a teacher appear in a (theosophical) group which already exists, or
does he/she not?

A: He may or he may not. He comes to fulfil a law. He may
revalidate the working bases of a derelict group.


Q: Why does he do this?

A: In response to an inexorable need.


Q: Does the group always recognose him?

A: Certain people in general do. It will depend upon the apparatus
of perception which they have. The onus on him is not
primarily to preach, but to make himself available to the perception
of the people.


Q: Does he need the support of such groups?

A: Both parties can benefit, because there is no such thing as
solitary work. EVEN a derelict (theosophical group) can be producing semi-
consciously a quantity of necessary force ('substance') which we
might say goes waste unless it is correctly used.


Q: How can we account for the dramatic rise of teachers who purport to
have been 'called' to bring, for instance, spirituality to mankind?

A: Do not generalise about this. One form is the result of
physical laws. A group of people (ie. perhaps socalled theosophists)
can engender necessary force (substance) already mentioned.

(Added by Sufilight: This force could for instance be called 'promotion of
the teaching').

They do not know what to do with it; they may not even really know what it
is. An individual, who has another development analogous to their own, may
contact this force (distance has no relevance here) and make use of it.

Now we have the amusing and also tragic situation in which (a) force is
raised by a certain group, (b) it is perceived and employed by someone else,
(c) this temporarily reinforces, through vampirism, the 'teacher' who
becomes prominent, (d) because of the similarity of this person with their
own defective tradition
(also sometimes called pseudo-theosophical teaching), the victim group think

that he is their teacher, (e) they join him, not realising that he seems to
be like them because he is using their own nutrition!

(Note added by Sufilight:
I can think of at least one theosophical teacher following this
pattern. - - -
Today this pattern is a nuisance and some Seekers do not realise this and
They even follow a repetitous pattern. Ie. a pattern which is not relating
itself
to the Time, place, people involved and spiritual needs of the process)

What you call a movement is part of an organic, natural development. It
takes on a local colour because of the culture in which it grows (ie. also
"the global planetary culture", which in a sense is local).

It cannot be imported together with the local colouring. It may attain a
Certain degree of necessary force in its location, but its spread into other
areas is conditional upon to vital factors:

(1) That it takes root naturally and becomes naturalised in
the fresh culture.

(2) That there is a need for it in the new culture.

The latter condition is operative only when there is a teacher,
adequately comminsioned to provide a formulation in that
area.

*******

from
M. Sufilight

==============================


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval14@earthlink.net>

Re: Corresponding terms in all religions and philosophies


Dear Friend:

In ISIS UNVEILED and the SECRET DOCTRINE HPB does this kind of comparison
and equivalence all the time.

Antique THEOSOPHY is the permanent and basic root of all religions and
philosophies.

To bring this home to modern research and thought HPB spent great time
tracing the historical roots of most of the great religions, sciences and
philosophies and also shows
how currently they still agree on basics.






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