Theos-Talk Archives (June 2005 Message tt00582)

June 28 2005



RE: Meditation & Patanjali



Dear Gerry:



"Higher SELF" and "Lower self" explains the duality and dichotomy of man's
moral nature (to me). 



The WITNESS (OBSERVER, PERCEIVER) is the immortal SELF -- ATMA. The rest
are the aggregations of skandhas (monads) that form the "sheaths or
"tools," Including Manas. 



As I see it, HPB does not 'GROW.' 



>From 1877 to 1891, as her students, corresponded, asked and themselves
altered words and descriptions, so the theosophical vocabulary became more
stable and exact -- as THEY grew and understood more, she (and the Masters
in Their answers) altered the descriptions, she wrote far better in
English than most of us can, even now. 



I recall that the Master K H at one point imparted to her his knowledge of
English, and in addition, she stated [in her letters to her family --
reproduced in PATH, Vols. 8, and 9 ] that her personality was at times
(with her active permission and assistance) "used" by other "Masters" (when
Karma permitted), and when exact answers within their specialties, were
needed in writing or in direct answers to interlocutors. I would not accuse
the Masters of inadequate knowledge and the wisdom of when and how to use
it. Her answers in TRANSACTIONS are a case in point. Her knowledge of
ancient history, of religious development and change, and of esotericism are
further "proofs" for me. 



Read through the whole series of writings from (1877) ISIS UNVEILED, and
the (1880-84) MAHATMA LETTERS on to MY BOOKS -- as I see it, there is
continuity and exactness there. 



Best wishes, 



Dallas



-------------------------------------------------------------



-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Schueler 
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 11:50 AM
To: 
Subject: RE: Meditation & Patanjali







<< Labeling has always got me into trouble because it does not reflect

individual development and freedom.>>



GS

I understand.





<< I try to find if possible the causes.>>



GS

Usually they are occult.



--------------------------------



DTB

BUT THEY MAKE SENSE AND DO NOT OBSCURE. D. 



----------------------------------------





<< I think all understanding depends on our ability to grasp the concept of

immortality for the INDIVIDUALITY -- the troublesome Monad (three in

one).>>



GS

I have found that the concept of immortality for the individuality is human

wishful thinking, the end-result of our belief in a separate self and our

desire to sustain it. A self, be it the ego or Ego or EGO is an imputation

and does not exist as such. There is no immortal individuality anywhere.



--------------------------------------



DTB

But how can you prove that ? What is Atma ? what is the
difference between Atma and Buddhi ? 



How does manas perceive these and on the other hand perceive the
machinations of kama? 



To me the moral filter is the most important - if virtue is
absent, then so is true esotericism.



Brotherhood as a concept has to be supported by the immortality
of the ATMA -- the DIVINE SPARK of the SPIRIT ?



------------------------------------------------

'

GS

This is a bitter pill for most to swallow, and so it will be rejected by

all of those people who do not understand it and who prefer to cling onto a

self. 



This included most Theosophists, and so I am never surprised when I

hear you going on about our personal immmortality and the like, using

Blavatsky quotes to "prove" your desire to maintain a self. 



I consider the "immortal individuality" no matter how you want to define it
as exoteric and anatman as esoteric. 



--------------------------------------------



DTB

"Maintaining an immortal PERSONAL SELF" is agreed to be
impossible.



As a "kama-rupa" it is dispersed after death. But the "skandhas"
(morally modified monads) are not in themselves destroyed. [They are
reattracted to the Monad when it returns on the Wheel of Rebirth, are they
not ? Some of them help, then in making up the new "personality ?" ]



How does altering terms help? 



If "anatman" is 'esoteric' - what does it stand for ? 



"ATMA" or "ATMAN" seems 'esoteric' to me. 



-----------------------------------------------------



GS

With the above in mind, I would change your sentence here to read: 





"I think all understanding depends on our ability to let go of the concept
of 

immortality for the INDIVIDUALITY."



Frankly, Dal, everyone already grasps onto the concept of a self, and it
is the letting go of it that is part of a Path.





<< HPB did not "grow spiritually" She has the Masters' wisdom of ages to

back her, and They corrected her work as needed. Alterations in the use of

terms seems to arise because of the need and development among her
readers.>>



GS

Interesting idea; she changes her wording and her spiritual understanding

as she grows, but does so only to address the growing needs of her

audience. It is a possibility. Lets remember that English was not her

primary language, and lets think about the difficulty she had in finding

the proper words for the ideas she was presenting. 



-------------------------------------------



DTB

I recall that the Master K H at one point imparted to her his knowledge of
English, and in addition, she stated [in her letters to her family --
reproduced in PATH, Vols. 8, and 9 ] that her personality was at times
(with her active permission and assistance) "used" by other "Masters" when
Karma permitted, and when exact answers within, their specialties, were
needed in writing or in direct answers to interlocutors. I would not accuse
the Masters of inadequate knowledge and the wisdom of when and how to use
it. Her answers in TRANSACTIONS are a case in point. Her knowledge of
ancient history and of esotericism are further "proofs" for me. 



Read through the whole series of writings from (1877) ISIS UNVEILED, and
the (1880-84) MAHATMA LETTERS on to MY BOOKS -- as I see it, there is
continuity and exactness there. 



---------------------------------------------------



GS

My own view here is that everyone grows spiritually, even a buddha.





DTB I WOULD AGREE





Love is the Law,



Jerry S.







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