Theos-Talk Archives (June 2005 Message tt00568)

June 17 2005

Dear friends: Bill and Jerry

Sorry to have stepped on sensitive toes. It was quite unintentional.

My sole motive in allowing content, origins and discussion to be spread is
that THEOSOPHY is so very interesting, and we don't know how many may be
touched and interested by our thoughts. 

I think we are all contributing to a greater understanding of our world and
its support systems. Also, we all benefit, don't we?

If I am in error, then I will be careful next time not to use your
contributions. I apologise for any infringement. I thought what you had to
say was highly significant and would help us all. 

Best wishes,

Dallas
 
-------------------------------------------

TIME.DOC

===============


TIME

1

(a) Time is only an illusion produced by the succession of our states of
consciousness as we travel through eternal duration, and it does not exist
where no consciousness exists in which the illusion can be produced; but
"lies asleep." 

The present is only a mathematical line which divides that part of eternal
duration which we call the future, from that part which we call the past.
Nothing on earth has real duration, for nothing remains without change — or
the same — for the billionth part of a second; and the sensation we have of
the actuality of the division of "time" known as the present, comes from the
blurring of that momentary glimpse, or succession of glimpses, of things
that our senses give us, as those things pass from the region of ideals
which we call the future, to the region of memories that we name the past. 

In the same way we experience a sensation of duration in the case of the
instantaneous electric spark, by reason of the blurred and continuing
impression on the retina. 

The real person or thing does not consist solely of what is seen at any
particular moment, but is composed of the sum of all its various and
changing conditions from its appearance in the material form to its
disappearance from the earth. It is these "sum-totals" that exist from
eternity in the "future," and pass by degrees through matter, to exist for
eternity in the "past." 

No one could say that a bar of metal dropped into the sea came into
existence as it left the air, and ceased to exist as it entered the water,
and that the bar itself consisted only of that cross-section thereof which
at any given moment coincided with the mathematical plane that separates,
and, at the same time, joins, the atmosphere and the ocean. 

Even so of persons and things, which, dropping out of the to-be into the
has-been, out of the future into the past — present momentarily to our
senses a cross-section, as it were, of their total selves, as they pass
through time and space (as matter) on their way from one eternity to
another: and these two constitute that "duration" in which alone anything
has true existence, were our senses but able to cognize it there.” S D
I 37



“(b) "Paranishpanna" is the absolute perfection to which all existences
attain at the close of a great period of activity, or Maha-Manvantara, and
in which they rest during the succeeding period of repose. In Tibetan it is
called Yong-Grub. Up to the day of the Yogâchârya school the true nature of
Paranirvana was taught publicly, but since then it has become entirely
esoteric; hence so many contradictory interpretations of it. It is only a
true Idealist who can understand it. 

Everything has to be viewed as ideal, with the exception of Paranirvana, by
him who would comprehend that state, and acquire a knowledge of how Non Ego,
Voidness, and Darkness are Three in One and alone Self-existent and perfect.
It is absolute, however, only in a relative sense, for it must give room to
still further absolute perfection, according to a higher standard of
excellence in the following period of activity — just as a perfect flower
must cease to be a perfect flower and die, in order to grow into a perfect
fruit, — if a somewhat Irish mode of expression may be permitted. 


The Secret Doctrine teaches the progressive development of everything,
worlds as well as atoms; and this stupendous development has neither
conceivable beginning nor imaginable end. Our "Universe" is only one of an
infinite number of Universes, all of them "Sons of Necessity," because links
in the great Cosmic chain of Universes, each one standing in the relation of
an effect as regards its predecessor, and being a cause as regards its
successor. 


The appearance and disappearance of the Universe are pictured as an
outbreathing and inbreathing of "the Great Breath," which is eternal, and
which, being Motion, is one of the three aspects of the Absolute — Abstract
Space and Duration being the other two. When the "Great Breath" is
projected, it is called the Divine Breath, and is regarded as the breathing
of the Unknowable Deity — the One Existence — which breathes out a thought,
as it were, which becomes the Kosmos. (See "Isis Unveiled.") So also is it
when the Divine Breath is inspired again the Universe disappears into the
bosom of "the Great Mother," who then sleeps "wrapped in her invisible
robes." 

(c) By "that which is and yet is not" is meant the Great Breath itself,
which we can only speak of as absolute existence, but cannot picture to our
imagination as any form of existence that we can distinguish from
Non-existence.


PAST – PRESENT – FUTURE


The three periods — the Present, the Past, and the Future — are in the
esoteric philosophy a compound time; for the three are a composite number
only in relation to the phenomenal plane, but in the realm of noumena have
no abstract validity. As said in the Scriptures: "The Past time is the
Present time, as also the Future, which, though it has not come into
existence, still is"; according to a precept in the Prasanga Madhyamika
teaching, whose dogmas have been known ever since it broke away from the
purely esoteric schools.* Our ideas, in short, on duration and time are all
derived from our sensations according to the laws of Association.
Inextricably bound up with the relativity of human knowledge, they
nevertheless can have no existence except in the experience of the
individual ego, and perish when its evolutionary march dispels the Maya of
phenomenal existence. What is Time, for instance, but the panoramic
succession of our states of consciousness? In the words of a Master, "I feel
irritated at having to use these three clumsy words — Past, Present, and
Future — miserable concepts of the objective phases of the subjective whole,
they are about as ill-adapted for the purpose as an axe for fine carving."
One has to acquire Paramârtha lest one should become too easy a prey to
Samvriti—is a philosophical axiom.* “	S D I 42-44



SPIRIT – MATTER -- TIME


“…the Occultist goes further, as has been shown in the Commentaries on the
Seven Stanzas. Hence he can hardly hope for any help or recognition from
science, which will reject both his "aniyamsam aniyasam" (the absolutely
spiritual atom) and his Manasaputras—"mind-born men." 

By resolving the "single material element" into one absolute irresolvable
element—Spirit, or "Root-matter," thus placing it at once outside the reach
and province of physical philosophy—he has, of course but little in common
with the orthodox men of science. 

He maintains that Spirit and Matter are two FACETS of the unknowable UNITY,
their apparently contrasted aspects depending, (a) on the various degrees of
differentiation of the latter, and (b) on the grades of consciousness
attained by man himself. This is, however, metaphysics, and has little to do
with physics—however great in its own terrestrial limitation that physical
philosophy may now be. 

Nevertheless, once that Science admits, if not the actual existence, at any
rate, the possibility of the existence, of a Universe with its numberless
forms, conditions, and aspects built out of a "single Substance,"* it has to
go further. 

Unless it also admits the possibility of One Element, or the ONE LIFE of the
Occultists. It will have to hang up that "single substance," especially if
limited to only the solar nebulae, like the coffin of Mahomet, in mid air,
though minus the attractive magnet that sustains that coffin. 

Fortunately for the speculative physicists, if unable to state with any
degree of precision what the nebular theory does imply, we have, thanks to
Professor Winchell, and several disagreeing astronomers, been able to learn
what it does not imply. * (Vide Supra.) 

Unfortunately, this is far from clearing even the most simple of the
problems that have vexed, and still do vex, the men of learning in their
research after truth. We have to proceed with our inquiries, starting with
the earliest hypotheses of modern science, if we would discover where and
why it sins. Perchance it may be found that Stallo is right, after all. 

That the blunders, contradictions, and fallacies made by the most eminent
men of learning are simply due to their abnormal attitude. They are, and
want to remain materialistic quand meme, and yet "the general principles of
the atomo-mechanical theory—the basis of modern physics—are substantially
identical with the cardinal doctrines of ontological metaphysics." 

Thus, "the fundamental errors of ontology become apparent in proportion to
the advance of physical Science." (Int. p. VI., "Concepts of Modern
Physics.") Science is honeycombed with metaphysical conceptions, but the
Scientists will not admit the charge and fight desperately to put
atomo-mechanical masks on purely incorporeal and spiritual laws in nature,
on our plane—refusing to admit their substantiality even on other planes,
the bare existence of which they reject a priori. 

It is easy to show, however, how Scientists, wedded to their materialistic
views, have endeavoured, ever since the day of Newton, to put false masks on
fact and truth. But their task is becoming with every year more difficult;
and with every year also, Chemistry, above all the other sciences,
approaches nearer and nearer the realm of the Occult in nature. It is
assimilating the very truths taught by the Occult Sciences for ages, but
hitherto bitterly derided. "Matter is eternal," says the Esoteric Doctrine.
But the matter the Occultists conceive of in its laya, or zero state, is not
the matter of modern science; not even in its most rarefied gaseous state.
Mr. Crookes' "radiant matter" would appear matter of the grossest kind in
the realm of the beginnings, as it becomes pure spirit before it has
returned back even to its first point of differentiation.

Therefore, when the adept or alchemist adds that, though matter is eternal,
for it is PRADHANA, yet atoms are born at every new manvantara, or
reconstruction of the universe, it is no such contradiction as a
materialist, who believes in nothing beyond the atom, might think. There is
a difference between manifested and unmanifested matter, between pradhana,
the beginningless and endless cause, and prakriti, or the manifested effect.
Says the sloka;—

"That which is the unevolved cause is emphatically called by the most
eminent sages, pradhana, original base, which is subtile prakriti, viz.,
that which is eternal, and which at once is, and is not, a mere process." * 

That which in modern phraseology is respectively referred to as Spirit and
Matter, is ONE in eternity as the perpetual cause, and it is neither Spirit
nor matter, but IT—rendered in Sanskrit TAD ("that"),—all that is, was,or
will be, all that the imagination of man is capable of conceiving. Even the
exoteric Pantheism of Hinduism renders it as no monotheistic philosophy ever
did, for in superb phraseology its cosmogony begins with the well-known
words:—


"There was neither day nor night, neither heaven nor earth, neither darkness
nor light. And there was not ought else apprehensible by the senses or by
the mental faculties. There was then one Brahma, essentially prakriti
(Nature) and Spirit. For the two aspects of Vishnu which are other than his
supreme essential aspect are prakriti and Spirit, and Brahman. When these
two other ASPECTS of his no longer subsist, but are dissolved, then that
aspect whence form and the rest, i.e., creation, proceed anew, is
denominated time, O twice-born." 


It is that which is dissolved, or the illusionary dual aspect of That, the
essence of which is eternally ONE, that we call eternal matter or Substance
(Vide in Part II., "Primordial Substance and Divine Thought"), formless,
sexless, inconceivable, even to our sixth sense or mind, † in which,
therefore, we refuse to see that which Monotheists call a personal,
anthropomorphic God. 
How are these two propositions—"that matter is eternal," and "the atom
periodical, and not eternal"—viewed by modern exact Science? S D I
543-5


======================

2


“Cyclic law involves time once you get to the third logos. --- and looking
backward or clairvoyance in retrospect would enable the master's to give us
the figures in earth time of various Yugas.
 
Time on this plane as a psychological phenomenon is a function of how much
energy exists in the rolling wheel of Devachan. When that energy depletes,
the reincarnating Ego is drawn back to another birth.
An interesting article on this problem of time is the SLEEPING SPHERES:
 
Part I was published in The Aquarian Theosophist, Vol. III, #9, p. 26

 
http://www.teosofia.com/Docs/vol-3-9.pdf
 
Part II was published in the Supplement to that issue as the lead article,
p. 1 http://www.teosofia.com/Docs/vol-3-9-supplement.pdf
 
=====================================

The Master says interesting things which touch on the time problem:
 
In answer to a question on the duration of the period of gestation between
Death and Devachan, the Mahatma refers to some confusion that had occurred
in the use of the term "Bardo." Correctly, he explains,
 
"Bardo" is the period between death and rebirth---and may last from a few
years to a kalpa. It is divided into three sub-periods

(1) when the Ego delivered of its mortal coil enters into Kamaloka (the
abode of Elementaries);

(2) when it enters into its "Gestation State;"

(3) when it is reborn in the Rupaloka of Devachan.
 
The duration of each of these sub-periods is then explained, with the
reasons for variations, the general principle throughout being the operation
of Karma.
 
Sub-period (1) may last from a few minutes to a number of years ....

Sub-period (2) is "very long," ... proportionate to the Ego's spiritual
stamina;

Sub-period (3) lasts in proportion to the good KARMA ...
 
Later it was explained that sub-period (3) in Devachan lasts
 
"For years, decades, centuries and millenniums, oftentimes multiplied by
something more":
 
Every effect must be proportionate to the cause. And, as man's terms of
incarnate existence bear but a small proportion to his period of inter-natal
existence in the manvantaric cycle, so the good thoughts, words, and deeds
of any one of these 'lives" on a globe are causative of effects, the working
out of which requires far more time than the evolution of the causes
occupied. …
 
The process of return is reviewed in a passage in the Collected Writings,
where Karma, Tanha (the thirst for experience) and the Skandhas are
described as "the almighty trinity in one, and the cause of our rebirth."
After an account of the man's experience at the moment of death, Mme
Blavatsky refers to the future incarnation:
 
... the vices, defects, and especially the passions of the preceding life
become, through certain laws of affinity and transference, the germs of the
future potentialities in the animal soul (Kama-rupa), hence of its
dependent, the astral double (Linga-Sharira)---at subsequent birth. It is
the personality alone which changes; the real reincarnating principle, the
EGO remains always the same; and it is its KARMA that guides the
idiosyncracies and prominent moral traits of the old "personality" that was
(and that the EGO knew not how to control), to re-appear in the new man that
will be. These traits and passions pursue and fasten on the yet plastic
third and fourth principles of the child, and---unless the EGO struggles and
conquers---they will develop with tenfold intensity and lead the adult man
to his destruction. For it is they who are the tools and weapons of the
Karmic LAW OF RETRIBUTION. Thus ... our good and bad actions "are the only
tools with which we paint our likeness at death," for the new man is
invariable the son and progeny of the old man that was.”
[Source ? ]

================================

3	S D QUOTES & REFS

[courtesy: Theosophical Publishing House , Pasadena]


Duration (Timeless)

aspect of the Absolute I 43 
conditioned & unconditioned I 62 
Kronos as endless I 418 
matter, motion, space & I 55 
nothing on Earth has real I 37 
Osiris king of I 437 
time & I 37, 43, 87


Time. 

Absolute above space & I 1-2n; II 158 
abstraction of deity (Coleridge) I 645 
always part of larger increment I 87-8 
aspect of Ain-soph I 350 
aspect of Brahma I 19 
Bain on, & space I 251n 
based on number seven I 408 
beginning of, in Book of Concealed Mystery I 239 
best test of truth (Laing) II 662 
boundless circle of I 113-14; II 233, 488, 549 
Chium (Egyptian) god of II 390n 
described I 36-7, 43-4 
duration & I 37, 43-4, 62 
eats up works of man (Haggard) II 317n 
eternity brought forth II 233 
eternity is, whose ends are not known I 354n 
evolution of I 407 
fire deity presides over I 86 
form of Vishnu II 307n 
genesis: coming out of eternal into II 24n 
Goethe on I 83 
good & evil progeny of, & space II 96 
Great Bear mother of, (Egyptian) I 227n; II 631 
infinite, or Kala I 407 
Kronos beyond divided, & space I 418 
Kronos or II 142 &nn, 341n, 420 
limitless, in eternity & circle I 113 
man is the "Eternal Pilgrim" in space & II 728 
a Master's words on I 44 
measures of, were secret II 396 
Moon as cycle of II 464 
nature, man &, (Cicero) II 451 
never-erring measures of II 621 
no, without consciousness I 37, 43-4 
Old, of Greeks w scythe I 459 
origin of, -periods w ancients I 389 &n 
Ormazd firstborn in boundless II 488 
perception of, is one of first occupations I 389-90 
pitiless devourer of events II 743 
prakriti, spirit & I 545 
rishis mark, of kali yuga II 550 
Rudra-Siva god of II 502n 
St Michael a son of, or Kronos I 459 
Saturn or II 341n 
secondary creation born in & out of I 427 
septenary cycles of I 392 
serpent symbolizes II 756 
Sesha or infinite II 49 
seven rishis mark II 549 
space &, are one II 612 
space &, forms of incognizable Deity II 382n 
space &, forms of THAT II 158 
space &, infinite, eternal II 154 
succession of conscious states I 37, 44 
swastika & cycles of II 99 
truth the daughter of II 571 
Vishnu enters circle of II 549 
"was not . . ." I 27, 36-7 
will cease at end of seventh round II 565


Cycle(s). See also Age, 

apses & equinoctial point II 330n 
ascending, descending I 417, 641, 642 
astronomical II 49, 70, 330 
Asuramaya, Narada & II 47-8 
beginning of 4,320,000-year I 434-5 
of Being I 40n, 135 
celestial hierarchy evolves thru I 221 
death of races & II 780 
of decline in species II 733-4 
Dendera zodiac & II 432-3 
eleven-year, & Sun I 290, 541 
of energy I 625 
esoteric II 70, 435 
evolution endless series of I 221, 641; II 189 
figures for collapsed II 395 
5,000 years of kali-yuga ends I xliii-iv, 612 
Garuda stands for great I 366 
grand, of mankind I 642 
help given at close of great I 612 
history repeats itself in I 676 
human & natural I 387-90 
of incarnation or necessity I 17 
individual, of Kabbala II 188 
initiation, & sidereal year I 314 
Kabiri appear at beginning of I 434-5 &n 
karma governs II 329 
known to initiates II 70 
legendary men stand for II 570-1 
long, of terrestrial existence II 246 
lunar, of nineteen years II 770 
Magnus Annus II 784-5 
manvantaric I 134n, 368-78, 673; II 98, 399, 434, 485 
mastered thru initiation I 642; II 566 
of matter & spirituality II 446 
of maya II 146n 
of monads I 135 
multiples of seven I 36 
Narada & II 47-9, 323 
of naros & saros I 114, 655n; II 619 
national, racial, tribal I 642; II 70, 301 
new, & astronomical positions II 785 
ogdoad (eight) & II 580 
overlap each other II 433n, 444 
Pesh-Hun recorded cosmic II 49 
Phoenix symbolized II 617 &n 
prehistoric knowledge of I 389 
racial & astronomical II 330-1, 443-6 
of return of constellations I 645 
sacred, of 4320 II 73 
secrets of, guarded II 396 
of septenary evolution I 267 
Sesha is, of eternity II 49 &n, 505 
sidereal II 330-1 
subservient to karma I 635 
swastika & II 99 
table of II 69-70 
teachers, world reformers & II 358-9 
three thousand, of existences I 135 
various, mentioned I 638 
week, year & II 395 
within cycles I 40n, 221, 637-8, 641-2; II 189, 301, 330, 620-1

Cycle (Circle) of Necessity I 227; II 303
obligatory for all souls I 17

Cyclic(al)

eternal motion is, & spiral II 80 
evolution I 634-47; II 34, 199, 300 
Jupiter as immutable, law II 786 
languages have their, evolution II 199 
law II 74, 157, 252, 298, 780 
law defied by human will I 298n 
law of race-evolution II 786n 
law of rebirth II 232 
Moon &, forms of disease I 180; II 622-3 &n 
Narada knew, intricacies II 49 
nature's acts are I 640 
pilgrimage II 103 
precession of all life II 263 
precession of equinoxes I 439n 
progress of asterisms (Hindu) II 253 
rise & fall II 723 
septenary a, law of nature II 623n 
spiral course of, law II 157


Chronology (ers, ies). See also Cycles, Yugas

biblical, dubious II 265, 336, 390, 395n 
biblical, 6,000 years II 71, 690 
Brahmanical II 66-74 
Chaldean, Chinese I 655; II 219, 429, 619-21 
Christian II 73 
of divine dynasties II 365-9 
esoteric among ancients II 395 
esoteric geological II 709-30, 778-9 
Hindu II 47-51, 66-74, 307n, 395, 551 
Jewish II 396, 691 
kalpas computed II 307n 
numbers keys to II 564 
occult I 340, 370-8; II 9-11, 148-9, 155, 320, 435, 437-8 
orientalist vs Hindu II 225 
in Puranas II 225, 571-2 
scientific II 71-3, 155, 288 
secret, of Linga Purana II 307n 
Smith's, of Chaldeans II 691 
Suidas & Dr Sepp II 619-20 
Western, borrowed fr India II 620 
will change greatly I 318 
world, difficult II 796-7


Chronos (Gk) Time

absolute time I 418 
derivation of term II 269n 
Kronos & I 417-18 
orders phases of evolution II 420 
Ormazd, circle or I 113-14 
Osiris & Isis children of I 381 
Phanes, Chaos &, (Orphism) I 452n, 583 
St Michael son of I 459 
Saturn or I 417-18 
swallows his children II 269, 415-16 
will swallow Church of Rome II 341n 
Zeus born in & out of I 427

Kronos (Gk) Saturn. 

Adam alleged to be I 642n 
Agruerus, Saturn or II 142n 
confused w Chronos I 418 
endless duration I 418 
generated god in Orphism I 19 
imprisons three polar giants II 775-6 
Jubal fashioned harp [harpe] of II 390 
Jupiter hurled to Earth by II 483, 515 
Jupiter Lapis & II 341n 
mutilated Uranus I 418; II 268, 283n, 766 
one of seven Arkite Titans II 142-3 
Ormazd identical w I 113-14 
in Prometheus Bound II 414, 415-16, 420-1 
ruled over Lemurians II 765 
St Michael son of I 459 
serpent swallowing tail I 253n 
Sevekh-, (Massey) I 408 
symbology of II 268-71, 421-2 
Titans sons of, & Rhea II 142, 269 
Uranus &, insufficient II 270

Kronos-Saturn

Jupiter son of I 72n 
personified third race Lemurians II 766 
Rudra-Siva or II 502n 
sydyk or II 142, 391-2


Kala (Skt) time

Brahma emanation of I 427 
circle of boundless time II 142n, 233, 549, 756 
evolution of I 407 
fire deity presides over I 86 
Khandakala & I 62 
Kronos-Saturn or I 72n, 452n 
purusha-pradhana-, & creation I 451-2n 
St Michael, son of time or I 459 
"Sarvaga" & I 582 
serpent deity II 756 
Vishnu is I 427; II 549, 564


Kalahansa [-Hamsa] (Skt). 

Brahma(n) or I 20, 79-80 
described, explained I 77-81 
Kwan-shi-yin floating on I 471 
lays golden egg I 359 
"Swan in Eternity" I 359, 362; II 122, 465


Vibration(s)

atomic, in nature I 455, 633 
awaken corresponding powers I 307 
commanding forces by means of I 514n 
eternal, of matter I 118n, 507-8n 
imponderable substances cause I 587 
Keely & I 561, 564 
last, of seventh eternity I 62 
of light & sound I 554 
masters perceive causes of I 514 
of molecules I 515 
music, color, etc II 628 
patterns of, in sand on plate I 112n 
power of I 563 
in Stanzas I 62-3 
table of various I 562
Vibratory Theory
correctness of, for Earth I 514, 524-5 
Keely's I 556, 558-9, 564

============================




 





-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Schueler 
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 4:24 PM
To: 

Subject: special request please

<<Some of my recent comments about time with respect to choice and result
has been spread-broadcast by Dallas to many other lists including shoreline
& strictly moderated theosophy lists where my further explanatory comments
may or may not be allowed. >>

Sorry to hear this. He should have asked for your permission. A long time
ago Dal asked me if it was OK to use my posts elsewhere and I agreed, so he
does have my permission to post anything I write here anywhere he wants to
so long as he gives me credit for my words.


<< My comments are intended for this audience which I perceive to be mostly
a group of individuals who have overcome the fear of swimming in deep
water. >>

I agree, Bill. My own comments are meant for our theos-l audience. But if
Dal or anyone else thinks that they will do some good elsewhere, then they
have my permission so long as I am given credit for my words (I really
really dislike plagerism).
 

<<I will not go to Bn-Study to ask Odin to further explain his
interpretation of Judge's interpretation of the Aphorisms of Karma. >>

Nor will I.


<< If Odin or Dallas wish to engage in a philosophical discussion of Time
here, I will be happy to participate. I choose, however, not to
participate in a conversation of this type at Bn-Study, where a moderator
can and will judge the permissibility of my comments. >>

My own feelings too. And occassionally Dal will posts comments here, but so
far I don't see others doing so and my presumption is that they just do not
feel ready yet.
 
Jerry S.