Theos-Talk Archives (June 2005 Message tt00402)

June 17 2005

Dear Gerry:

Some of Patanjali may appear elementary. But to me it has great depth. I am sorry you waded through that. I note your comments -- I say to myself: if only we could converse we might clear up those differences of meaning.

I have also waded through words and designations used in many older systemsso as to secure an idea of coincidence and of difference.

I also note that even in the 16 years [ ISIS UNVEILED to MY BOOKS ] HPB published [ 1875 - 1891 ] designations seem to change -- yet, even there I also found that descriptions made for reconciliation.

Principles, bodies, sheaths, upadhis, koshas, [S D I 157, II 596, et cetera...] and the words used in Kabalah, and by Plato, and in the Egyptian mysteries --
are all resolvable.  

I am not convinced that our "modern psychologists" help -- at least not me. They focus on the "personality" of this life which vanishes almost entirely at death. 

THEOSOPHY concerns itself with the "Individuality" (ATMA - BUDDHI - MANAS ) You get annoyed (seemingly) with it being designated a "triple Monad." Are they not to be considered a conjoined immortal threesome -- that during periods of manifestation live and move together ? 

The main problem (as I see it) is that THEOSOPHY takes into account the Spiritual aspect of evolution, and studies this and the evolution of all material "forms."

It thus covers:

1	Immortality of the Monad [Spirit-Matter-Mind]

2	Reincarnation [into Material "principles / sheaths]

3	Virtue and Vice -- KARMA [free choice between 
brotherly cooperation or selfish isolation]

4	Total evolution under an equable universal Plan of all Monads.


As to "Spiritual Development" and on the subject of "Man's evolution" it teaches:

1	That each spirit is a manifestation of the One Spirit, and thus a part ofall. It passes through a series of experiences in incarnation, and is destined to ultimate reunion with the Divine.

2	That this incarnation is not single but repeated, each individuality becoming re-embodied during numerous existences in successive races and "globes" of our chain, and accumulating the experiences of each incarnation towards its perfection. [see S D I 200]

3	That between adjacent incarnations, after the grosser elements are purged away (from the "monads of lesser experience" that accompany as skandhas, and provide the "Monad" with the 'sheaths' of the Soul") , comes a period of comparative rest and refreshment, called Devachan—the soul being therein prepared for its next descent into material life.

The constitution of man is subdivided in a septenary manner, the main divisions being those of Spirit [ATMA & BUDDHI], Soul [MANAS -- another trinity, as there is (1) pure Manas, (2) [Buddhi-Manas, and (3) Kama-Manas], and Body [(1) physical, (2) astral, (3)Life Energy (Prana), and, (4) Desire & Emotion or KAMA]. These 7 divisions and their relative development govern his subjective condition after death. 

Note: Spirit is not a seventh principle. It is the synthesis, of the whole, and is equally present in the other six. It pervades all space and the whole Universe.

The present various divisions (principles - consisting of 'skandhas') can only be used as a general working hypothesis, to be developed and corrected as students advance and themselves develop in understanding their continualinteraction.

The nature of each incarnation depends upon the balance struck between the merit and demerit of the previous life or lives —upon the way in which the man has lived and thought; and this law is inflexible and wholly just.

"Karma"— a term signifying two things, (1) the law of ethical causation ("Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap"); and (2) the balance or excess of merit or demerit in any individual, determines the main experiences of joy and sorrow in each incarnation, so that what we call "luck" or "accident" is in reality "that which is deserved"—desert acquired in past existence.

Karma is not all exhausted in a single life, nor is a person necessarily inthis life experiencing the effect of all his previous Karma; for some may be held back by various causes. 

The principle cause is the failure of the Ego to acquire a personality, or 'body' which will furnish the instrument or apparatus, in and by which themeditation or thoughts of previous lives can have their effect and be ripened. 

Hence it is held that there is a mysterious power in the man's thoughts (and desires) during a life, sure to bring about its results in either an immediately succeeding life, or in one many lives distant; that is, in whateverlife the Ego obtains a body capable of being the focus, apparatus, or instrument for the ripening of some particular kind of past Karma. 

The vast period and process of evolution up to reunion with the Divine is and includes successive elevation from rank to rank of power and usefulness.The most exalted beings still in the flesh are known as Sages, Rishis, Prophets, Elder Brothers, Buddhas, Masters of Wisdom. 

Their great function being the preservation at all times, and when cyclic laws permit, the extension of spiritual knowledge and influence. Theosophy,to day, is one aspect of this, and we all are in such a period during which such facts are revealed.

When conscious union (after purification) of the embodied mind [Kama-Manas]with the Divine {BUDDHI-Manas} is effected, all the events and experiencesof each incarnation are known. The records in the akasa are visible to it.


Theosophy further teaches:

1	That the essence of the process lies in the securing of supremacy, to thehighest, the spiritual, virtuous elements of man's nature.

2	That this is attained along four lines, among others,—

(a) The entire eradication of selfishness (or any selfish separative vice)in all forms, and the cultivation of broad, generous sympathy in, and effort for the good of others. [ see Jataka tales of the Buddha ]

(b) The absolute cultivation of the inner, spiritual man by meditation, byreaching to and communion with the Divine, [the Inner HIGHER SELF: SPIRIT- ATMA - which is all-pervasive] and by exercise of the kind described byPatanjali, i.e., incessant striving through close attention, to embody an ideal end.

(c) The control of fleshly appetites and desires, all lower, material and selfish interests being deliberately subordinated to the behests of the Ideals of the Spirit.

(d) The careful performance of every duty without desire for reward, leaving results to the Universal and just Law.


3	That while the above is incumbent on and practicable by all religiously disposed men, a yet higher plane of spiritual attainment is conditioned upona specific course of training, physical, intellectual and spiritual, by which the internal faculties are first aroused and then developed.

4	That an extension of this process is reached in Adeptship, Mahâtmâship, or the states of Rishis, Sages and Dhyan Chohans, which are all exalted stages, attained by laborious self-discipline and hardship, protracted through possibly many incarnations, and with many degrees of initiation and preferment, beyond which are yet other stages ever approaching the Divine.


As to the rationale of spiritual development it asserts:


1	That the process takes place entirely within the individual himself, the motive, the effort, and the result proceeding from his own inner nature, along the lines of self-evolution. [In other words, the effort made by each maturing Monad is to assist all the 'skandhas' -- monads of lesser experience around it -- towards their own individual perfection. Thus each Great Being, or Buddha has an enormous train of devotees and chelas who form the "sangha" around and following him. ]

2	That, however personal and interior, this process is not unaided, being possible, in fact, only through close communion with the supreme source of all strength. [The members of the Great Lodge assist. See ISIS UNVEILED, II. Pp. 92-4, 98-103.]

As to the degree of advancement in incarnations it holds:

1	That even a mere intellectual acquaintance with Theosophic truth has great value in fitting the individual for a step upwards in his next earth-life, as it gives an impulse in that direction.

2	That still more is gained by a career of duty, piety and beneficence.

3	That a still greater advance is attained by the attentive and devoted useof the means to spiritual culture heretofore stated.

4	That every race and individual of it reaches in evolution a period known as "the moment of choice," when they decide for themselves their future destiny by a deliberate and conscious choice between eternal life and death, and that this right of choice is the peculiar right or appanage of the Free Soul -- Monad. 

It cannot be exercised until the man has realized the Divine Soul [BUDDHI-MANAS] within him, and until that Divine Soul has attained some measure of self-consciousness in and through a "purified personality" or, the body. 

The "moment of choice" is made up of all moments. It cannot come unless allthe previous lives have led up to it. Any individual can hasten the adventof this period for himself under the previously stated law of the ripeningof Karma. Should he then fail to choose right he is not wholly condemned, for the economy of nature provides that he shall again and again have the opportunity of choice when the moment arrives for the whole race. 

After this period the race, having blossomed, tends towards its dissolution. A few individuals of it will have outstripped its progress and attained Adeptship or Mahâtmâship. 

There is also a fate that comes to even Adepts of the Good Law which is somewhat similar to a loss of "heaven" after its enjoyment for incalculable periods of time. 

When the Adept has reached a certain very high point in his evolution he may by a mere wish, become what the Hindus call a "Deva"—or lesser god. If he does this, then, although he will enjoy the bliss and power of that state for a vast length of time, he will not at the next Pralaya partake of the conscious life "in the bosom of the Father," but has to pass down into matter at the next new "creation," performing certain functions that could not now be made clear, and has to come up again through the elemental world; but this fate is not like that of the Black Magician. 

And again between the two he can choose the middle state and become a Nirmânakâya—one who gives up the bliss of Nirvâna and remains in conscious existence outside of his body after its death; in order to help Humanity. [see Voice, pp. 44-47, 78-9] This is the greatest sacrifice he can do for mankind. By advancement from one degree of interest and comparative attainment to another as above stated, the student hastens the advent of the moment of choice, after which his rate of progress is greatly intensified. [see S D I 207-8]

It may be added that Theosophy is the only system of religion and philosophy which gives satisfactory explanation of such problems as these:

1	The object, use, and inhabitation of other globes than this earth, which globes serve to complete and prolong the evolutionary course, and to fill the required measure of the universal experience of all Souls. It takes advantage of no one and encourages free study and search. It warns against all "Authority." It always offers assistance if available.

2	The geological cataclysms of earth; the frequent absence of intermediate types in its fauna; the occurrence of architectural and other relics of races now lost, and as to which ordinary science has nothing but vain conjecture; the nature of extinct civilizations and the causes of their extinction;the persistence of savagery and the unequal development of existing civilizations; the differences, physical and internal, between the various races of men; the line of future development. 

3	The contrasts and unisons of the tenets of the world's faiths, and the common foundation underlying them all. (PRIMORDIAL,. ANTIQUE THEOSOPHY)

4	The existence of evil, of suffering, and of sorrow— a hopeless puzzle to the mere philanthropist or theologian. [Does "modern psychology" identify and consider that ? Is that made its primary basis ? ] 

5	The inequalities in social condition and privilege; the sharp contrasts between wealth and poverty, intelligence and stupidity, culture and ignorance, virtue and vileness; the appearance of men of genius in families destitute of it, as well as other facts in conflict with the law of heredity; the frequent cases of unfitness of environment around individuals, so sore as to embitter disposition, hamper aspiration, and paralyze endeavor; the violent antithesis between character and condition; the occurrence of accident, misfortune and untimely death —all of them problems solvable only by either the conventional theory of Divine caprice or the Theosophic doctrines of Karma and Reincarnation.

6	The possession by individuals of genius or of abnormal sensitivity and psychic powers—clairvoyance, clairaudience, etc., as well as the phenomena of psychometry.

7	The true nature of genuine phenomena in spiritualism, and the proper antidote to superstition, fancy and to exaggerated expectation.

8	The failure of conventional religions to greatly extend their areas, reform abuses, reorganize society, expand the idea of brotherhood, abate discontent, diminish crime, and elevate humanity; and an apparent inadequacy to realize in individual lives the ideal they professedly uphold.


I have read all your comments below and hope these answers will help show the theosophical basis I use and respect. 

Best wishes, 

Dallas

============================
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Schueler 
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 4:09 PM
To: 
Subject: RE: Meditation & Patanjali

Re:	STUDY IN PSYCHOLOGY AND PATANJALI  

Dal, 


Because of your subject title, Meditation & Patanjali, I read through
your responses and expecting some info on meditation, but until the very
end I found only intellectual speculations. I have yet to hear you describe
Theosophical meditation as a Path technique.


DTB
What does Theosophy teach -- and then, compare it with the views of
writers, enquirers and specifically, with modern “psychology.”  

GS
This sounds good, but the problem is that Theosophy teaches different
things to different people. You yourself have said many times that every
time you read the literature you learn something new.


DTB
It does not try to employ terms that are identical with our modern
psychologists, for the reason that any one who reviews the progress made by
its science over the past 100 years, notices vast changes in its speculative systems and definitions. 

GS
This is a bogus reason, Dal. Theosophy ala Blavatsky does not employ
identical terms because it was formulated prior to Jung who pioneered what
we call "modern physchology." I have been trying to integrate her Theosophy
with modern psychology and I think I have done it pretty well. 

====DTB	Changes are continuous.  


DTB
Theosophy adheres to the ancient system of human psychology which does
not alter. 


GS
It adheres to the original Sanskrit terms, yes. But, as you well know,
Blavatsky's formulation is a composite of both Hinduism and Buddhism, and
thus is neither and has to stand on its own. On the one hand her composite
scheme makes it easier for westerners to intellectually understand, but on the other hand muddies the waters in many areas. 


Is manas the human mind like it is in Hinduism? Is it the manovijnana together with the sensory consciousnesses found in Buddhism? Or is it simply a principle, the principle of mentation? 

She uses the term manas in her writings sometimes as the human mind, and sometimes as the principle of mentation, and sometimes as a body. 

Look at Judge's Ocean and you will see a list of "bodies" which are her "principles." 

When I first came into Theosophy I could not tell a principle from a body and assumed that her seven principles were also seven bodies. I suspect thatmost newbies fall into this trap as well. In fact, it was not until I cameonto a listserve that someone told me that a principle is not a body. She mentions the skandhas
almost in passing, and yet the truth of it is that her principles are principles and our physical and subtle bodies are our skandhas. 

She talks about the Atma-Buddhi Monad as if such a thing existed as such.

How can two principles form a monad? She tries to get around this by
claiming that buddhi, the principle of intuitive perception, serves as
atma's upadhi or vehicle. If we take her words literally, we have the
principle of selfhood embodied within the principle of intuitive preception
consituting a Higher Self? On the face of it, this has to be pure nonsense.

Principles are not bodies, and vice versa. Anyway, this shows how she
struggled to find English words for things, and in the process muddied the
waters. When it came to the Globes, she flat gave up and simply used the
first letters of the English alphabet. Cop out or a deliberate blind? 

We Theosophists are faced wtih two possible conclusions: 

(1) English was not her main language and she struggled to find appropriateEnglish words, sometimes failing just a bit, or 

(2) She knew very well what she was saying and deliberately muddied the waters as blinds for the unwary. 

Take your choice. I suspect that it is a bit of both although where one starts and
the other begins is anyone's guess.




=====DTB Masters certified They reviewed the SECRET DOCTRINE and it was their triple authorship. Look at the reverence they accord the Buddha in Their letters. Do you think He had nothing to do with the SECRET DOCTRINE ?



DTB
A few questions will now be asked: -- 

If we are able to perceive thought at one or two, or more levels, then what
makes the difference?  

The difference is in our perception.



===========DTB But the PERCEIVER is ONE. 



DTB
How are those levels designated? What determines them? 

GS
I personally like Blavatsky's Universe Model, and so I locate emotions on
the astral plane, thoughts on the mental plane, intuitions on the casual
plane, spiritual ideas on the spiritual plane, and so on. Her model serves
as an intellectual structural grid for me to maintain my worldview. If I
ever have an experience that I cannot locate somewhere on her model, then I
will likely face cognitive dissonance and will have to rethink her model.
So far, this hasn't happened.

DTB
If we PERCEIVE these levels then WHO are “WE” ? 


GS
"We" are the skandhas. When these are purified, then "we" are the Dhyani
Buddhas.



======	DTB WE ARE A Monad NOW IN THE MENTAL STAGE OF DEVELOPMENT We employ skandhas to live in various levels ---



DTB
I would say: we are independent and superior to the “power of thinking.”
And, to the [lower] Mind considered as the present generator of thoughts,
their consideration, analysis, and recording. 

GS
Technically, our "power of thinking" comes from the principle of manas as
it functions through our skandhas. Our "power of intuitive insight" comes
from the principle of buddhi as it functions through our skandhas. Our
"power of spiritual insight" comes from the principle of atma as it
functions through our skandhas.

DTB
We notice that at will, [what is the “will?”] we can direct our Mind to
areas where we want it to “perceive, remember, build a new concept,
analyse, review,” and, in general, function according to the restraints we place,
partially place, or do not place at all, upon it. 

GS
In the sense that conditional reality is Motion through Space, our will is
that which directs this Motion, and it does so under the driving power of
desire. Without direction our Motion is willy nilly. It is the will acting
under kama, the principle of desire, that provides direction, and it is
this sense of direction that results in our sense of purpose and gives our
Motion through Space personal meaning to us.



=====	DTB WHAT IS "IT" THAT MOVES "THROUGH SPACE ?" 
===	How is choice made? Is it not desire? Is not the motive for desire significant ? 
===	What then is the power of MOTIVE ? Who uses it ?



DTB
[Some, who are called “weak willed,” are found to be at times temporarily overwhelmed by their emotions and feelings. In such casesthey say they were “obsessed,” or “taken over,” or, “made to stand besides themselves.” How is thispossible if this is true?] 

GS
Change obsessed to possessed. Such people have lost contact with their True
Will and their Motion through Space is aimless drifting because without the
True Will there is no meaning in life. Such "drifters" are easy victims of
possession.



=========	DTB	HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE? In a universe o flawhow can there be anything "drifting" 

====	What is "True Will ?" Who uses it ?




DTB
Then, there are our “inclinations, talents and desires.”  
Can they not be viewed as separate from the purely mental working and tools
we can command. They appear to have their own existence and come and go 
in successive waves of emotion. We then say: “We feel (or life / dislike)
this, or that.” 

GS
For the most part, our inclinations, talents, and desires, are
karmic/genetic having been formulated in past lives. Our "mental working
and tools" are all our personal expressions of the principle of manas just
as our desires, our likes and dislikes, are our personal expressions of the
principle of kama. 

DTB
Since we can alter the strength and direction of our feelings, desires,
wants, needs, etc.. are we not their CONTROLLER ? 

GS
In a sense, we can "command" them. If you look at the eastern literature,
you will find that "feelings, desires, wants, needs, etc:" are our own
skandhas. Our consciousness is also a skandha. So when we become conscious
of some inner desire or feeling, we have a situation where our skandha of
consiousness becomes aware of our skandha of feeling. There is no
individual unitary self in any of this, nor is one necessary. Your
"controller" is an imputation that you superimpose onto your skandhas and
exists only in your mind.




=======DTB	I can understand variations in INTELLIGENCE but CONSCIOUSNESS or AWARENESS implies continuity and UNITY -- No?


Look at this: [ BHAGAVAD GITA Notes, pp. 98-100 ]


"Krishna advises his friend to restrain the senses, and then to "strengthenhimself by himself." 

The meaning here is that he is to rely upon the One Consciousness which, asdifferentiated in a man, is his higher self. By means of this higher self he is to strengthen the lower, or that which he is accustomed to call "myself." 

It will not be amiss here to quote from some notes of conversation with a friend of mine. 

"Our consciousness is one and not many, nor different from other consciousnesses. It is not waking consciousness or sleeping consciousness, or any other but consciousness itself. 

"Now that which I have called consciousness is Being. The ancient division was: 
Sat, or Being; 

Chit, or Consciousness, Mind; }   

Ananda, or Bliss. 

These together are called Sat-chit-ananda
 
"But Sat ―or Being ―the first of the three, is itself both Chit and Ananda. The appearing together in full harmony of Being and Consciousness is Bliss or Ananda. Hence that harmony is called Sat-chit-ananda. 

"But the one consciousness of each person is the Witness or Spectator of the actions and experiences of every state we are in or pass through. It therefore follows that the waking condition of the mind is not separate consciousness. 
"The one consciousness pierces up and down through all the states or planesof Being, and serves to uphold the memory ―whether complete or incomplete ―of each state's experiences. 

"Thus in waking life, Sat experiences fully and knows. In dream state, Sat again knows and sees what goes on there, while there may not be in the brain a complete memory of the waking state just quitted. In Sushupti ―beyond dream and yet on indefinitely, Sat still knows all that is done or heard or seen. 
"The way to salvation must be entered. To take the first step raises the possibility of success. Hence it is said, 'When the first attainment has beenwon, Moksha (salvation) has been won.' 

“The first step is giving up bad associations and getting a longingfor knowledge of God; the second is joining good company, listening to their teachings and practicing them; the third is strengthening the first two attainments, having faith and continuing in it. Whoever dies thus, lays thesure foundation for ascent to adeptship, or salvation.”

===========================




DTB
If it is agreed that they have great strength, they DO NOT CONTROL us
unless we allow them to do so.  

GS
Your "us" is an imputational reality only. What does it matter if one
skandha controls another? For most people it means nothing and different
skandhas are in dominance at different times. When I say that we should
follow our True Will, does this mean that our True Will controls us? Now,
what if we were on a Path? Then we will want our Motion through Space to go
in a specific direction, towards a specific location or goal. In such a
situation, which skandha dominates does matter. And part of such a Path is
purifying all of our skandhas so that dominance will no longer be an issue. 

DTB
In such cases we have expressions as “ I was besides myself.” What does this mean? [Note: in law, this factor of a temporary loss of control, does not mitigate the fact that any evil actions may have been committed. The cause for such overwhelming event is however unclear. In such case “mental disease” – which is usually quitevague, is mentioned as a cause.] 

GS
Most people refer to the ego-complex as I. The psyche contains many
complexes, and in a healthy psyche the ego-complex is dominant. In an
unhealthy psyche it is not. When one says "I was not myself" it
psychologically means that the ego-complex was temporarily over-ridden by
another competing complex that is unconscious to the ego-complex. A healthy
ego-complex retains dominance by being aware of the other complexes. An
unhealthy or weak ego-complex can be taken over by an unconscious one. A
complex is usually unconscious to the ego-complex because conscious
awareness of it is painful. Treatment involves allowing the ego-complex to
slowly become conscious of the other complex and assimilate it. Treatment
of this kind usually take many years of psychotherapy. Anyway, the law
recognizes that when an action occurs by a complex that is unconscious to
the ego, the ego cannot be held legally responsible for it, and
psychotherapy is in order. In the same way, if a toddler accidently shoots
someone with a loaded gun that she found lying around, the law does not
hold the child responsible but rather the individual who left a loaded gun
lying around. 

When we posit the existence of a permanent independent self, then we feel
that that self is accountable for any and all actions. If we believe in
karma, then we want to place a karmic debt on all actions of that self. A
displaced ego is immaterial, the fact that the action was done by a child
is immaterial. The law and psychology are seen to be inadequate. But the
fact of the matter is that there is no unitary self to accept karmic blame.
It is this very belief in such a self that keeps the Wheel of Karma
rolling. 

DTB
There is an ancient a text, named PATANJALI’s YOGA APHORISMS 
(partially appended with comments below).that we review here.

GS
Patanjali's yoga is one-pointed concentration like the shamatha of
Buddhism. It lacks the visipyana of Buddhism.

DTB
It places the “REAL HUMAN” in the human entity and, it calls it the
immortal SPIRIT. [or ATMA]. This is unalterable and undying. 

GS
Looking for a "real human" caps or not, is like looking for spooks under
our bed. Atma is viewed as a real and permanent entity in Hinduism, and
Patanjali was a Hindu. Buddhism denies such a thing, and please lets
remember that Blavatsky was a Buddhist.

DTB
[Hence, reincarnation is posited as an invariable fact. 

GS
Interesting choice of words here Dal. Positing a fact? There remains
absolutely no proof today whatsoever that reincarnation is a fact. Rather
it is a belief, an unprovable assumption.


DTB
The successive use of many ‘bodies’ enables the “Mind / Soul” to
acquire over a long period, the experience and information to “grow, to
analyse, to verify,” and intellectually, to gradually ‘illuminate’ itself.]
The word “individuality” is employed technically to designate the
imperishable Monad [or ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS.] 

GS
There is no such thing as inviduality. It is pure mayaic illusion that only
exists imputationally. Conditional reality is a vast network of
inter-related aggregates. A butterfly flaps its wings in Georgia and
changes the weather patterns in Michigan. Nothing exists independently from
other things. The atma-buddhi monad is not a unitary independent "self" nor
is the atma-buddhi-manas monad alias the Reincarnaing Ego. They are
temporary aggregates like everything else.

DTB
Specifically, it views this immaterial primordial Self-Force, the individual
SPIRIT, as resident in...is of a highly refined, pure substance. [Suddha
Sattva – the T. GLOSSARY, HPB, p. 311]. 

GS
While intellectually very nice, what does any of this have to do with
meditation? I will skip over your voluminous quotes and notes that have
nothing whatever to do with medittion.

---- snip ----

Jerry S.