Theos-Talk Archives (June 2005 Message tt00325)

June 13 2005

Friends:

May we say that in an unlimited and eternal context "freedom" is the power
to examine and to know all variations relating to those polar extremes the
SPIRIT and MATTER ?

If so this power can only be unsupervised? Or: "free."

Thus during periods of manifestation the "MIND" as a faculty has to be free,
and the choices made by it are the source of Karma. 

In a framework of illimitable time all experiences being recorded ETERNAL
LAW emerges not to constrain any unit, but only to assist the whole.

May one say:

SPIRIT is universal and timeless as IDEAL.

MATTER is universal and time-limited as ENDLESS SPACE, 

MIND is universal and ever-active as "MANAGEMENT AND MANAGER."

The 3 "Gunas" or qualities of nature may be seen here fully equipoised.

Best wishes,

Dallas

================================
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Schueler [mailto:gschueler@earthlink.net] 
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 6:42 PM
To: Theosophy Study List
Subject: Re: Unbounded Freedom

<< It sounds like you are saying that one is only free to make choices from
a 
pre-*chosen* laundry list of options.>>

Most of the items on the laundry ist are chosen not be me but rather by
karma. I believe the main difference between what I see as limited choices
and what you see as unlimited choices is time. I would say that currently
my choices are limited by my karma, while you seem to be saying (correct me
if I am wrong) that I have unlimited choices that, when made strong enough,
will come about eventually over time. For example, Adepthood may not an
option for me today, but could be one for me tomorrow if I tread a Path
today. But time is a funny thing, and tomorrow is a concept that never
comes. The options available to us on the Arc of Descent are different from
those available to us on the Arc of Ascent. I cannot choose to be both
young and old. The one preculdes the other. Same with male and female. If I
am young today my choice to be old has to wait for maturity. If I am old
today then my choice to be young has to wait until a new life tomorrow. Do
you see what I mean? We do have choices, but sometimes one choice will
depend on another, and quite often our choices are separated by a lot of
time. I do consider choices that will only happen tomorrow to be real
choices. Any choices that I cannot make today (ie during any one lifetime)
I consider to be restricted to me. Furthermore, the laws of duality
necessitate that as long as we experience free choice, we will also
experience bondage in the form of unconscious or karmic choices. We cannot
have one without the other. Here's a crude example: I cannot choose to
remain young. The fountain of youth is not available to me. The entropic
Arrow of Time forces me to age each day. Staying young is not an option on
my laundry list. The choice to wait for rebirth is not a choice because it
will happen in good time whether I choose it or not. Events that will
happen whether I choose them or not are events under the embrella of
predestination. Some things are predestined and some things are not. 


<< As I see it, if an option is on the list -the list that I pre-chose-,
then I 
can choose that option because I have already pre-chosen that it be an 
available choice. >>

True, and that is just what I have been saying. Once we choose to become a
member of the human lifewave, we are given a laundry list of available
options. There is also a laundry list of pre-determined events to be
experienced statistically as part of humanity, and these are not optional.
In a sense, the one list is personal while the other is collective. Our
personal list includes options that we are free to choose from. Our
collective list is pre-determined, statisitcal, and karmic. Those items on
the collective list that come to us randomly and unexpectedly are what I
call the Chaos Factor.


<< One's choice is not restricted and one is one is even 
free to choose to allow another to pre-choose and choose for one. Each
may 
pre-choose and choose as the individual understanding guides one.>>

Once the choice is made to join a livewave, one is then restricted to the
collective list of pre-determined atatistical experiences possible for that
lifewave. This is true for all lifewaves, so no matter what choice we make,
no matter what self-identification we choose to experience, there is always
free will and pre-destination; we cannot have one without the other. This
predestined list contains the general rules in which each lifewave
manifests itself. These rules are the collective karma of the lifewave. 

On the surface at least, I see "unlimited free choice" as a pipe dream, as
wishful thinking, because practically every choice we make narrows the list
of future choices. When an I-Not-I Monad originally enters manifestation,
it cannot willy nilly choose to be in any lifewave it wants. Its choices
are limited by karma. If no previous manvantaric experience, then such a
monad begins in the mineral kingdom, and only if experience was gained in
past manvantaras are higher lifewaves available.


<< As I see it, disconnecting conditional reality from the ultimate source
of 
its conditioning and considering it as a self-sufficient reality in and of 
itself is not a choice I make. >>

Positing a source gets us into a causeless cause paradox which some like
but I do not.


<< Choosing to make this disconnect, however, 
remains one of the unlimited choices of the unbounded I and you are 
certainly free to make it again and again. >>

Conditional reality is either the effect of thoroughly established reality
or not no matter how I choose to see it. My choice to see pink elephants
does not make them "real" except relative to my own deluded self. I can
impute a self all I want to, but no self exists except in the conceptual
mind.


<< As I see it, one can choose to 
believe that all that is, was, or ever will be (including that which one 
might label 'conditional reality' has its alpha and omega in the
absolutely 
thoroughly established reality. As such, the thoroughly established
reality 
becomes an expanded comprehensive reality that includes, but is not
limited 
to, the conditional and imputational reality.>>

I kind of agree, but one is also free to posit God too if one chooses. If
one imputes God, does God then exist? Can such a God create us, or do we
create Him?


<< While I am free to choose suffering, I do not choose it so I do not
suffer. >>

When you chose to join the human lifewave, you chose suffering. Its on the
collective list. I believe we have already talked about masochism, and so
I will let that dead horse lay.


<< My ego-complex suffers, but I do not suffer with it. Yes my body aches
and 
seeks shelter and comfort, and my heart cries in dismay, and my mind
works 
out mental plane solutions to physical plane problems -- because that is 
what egos, bodies, hearts, and minds do, but I am not these tools. I am in 
the world but not of the world. Since I do not suffer, I do not wonder if 
death of my body or any other of my tools will end suffering. >>

Sounds like a heathly perspective.


<< I offered two other similar personal experiences to the one you offer
above. 
They were offered with goodwill to demonstrate that my experience does not 
match the conclusion you stated when you said the following: >>

Thanks for sharing


<<<<<< When we are embodied, we can be consciously aware of all seven
planes one
at a time or all together if we want to. But when we lose the physical
body at death, coma, or even in sleep, then we can no longer be aware of
the
physical plane and conscious awareness is restricted from it.>>>>>

I stand by this statement. I find truth in it.


<< It appears that you have changed your point of awareness and would no
longer 
make the above sweeping statement on behalf of all the "we's". As I see
it, 
your statement above is only true from the point of view of that which is 
attached to and dependent upon the physical body for its identity and 
perspective. >>

I stand by my statement. The physical body is not necessary for identity,
it is necessary for its sensory organs. Beyond our physical senses, we can
know absolutely nothing at all about the physical plane. Everything we know
about the physical world of matter comes to us through the physical sense
either directly or in our reading and/or communicating with others. 


<< Have I located you correctly for this line of thought? I do not wish to 
belabor the point, but, while I acknowledge you as an immortal I, it helps 
me to get a self-described position from you occasionally as you move so 
adeptly through self, science, psychology, religion, philosophy, and of 
course the various realities.>>

This is kind of how I see it. We experience and gain experiential knowledge
through sensory organs, and we do this on each and every plane. As Zakk
puts it, our focus of awareness has to work through sensory organs. Without
appropriate sensory organs there is no direct experience. In this sense we
can say that direct experience IS sensory while our interpretation of it is
intellectual. We experience the physical plane through our physical senses
either directly or indirectly. When death occurs and the silver cord is
severed, we can no longer gain experiential knowledge of the physical
plane. In devachan, we can no longer gain experiential knowledge of the
physical or astral planes, there being no way to gain such knowledge. The
devachanee has no awareness whatsoever of the two lower planes. In the same
way, the nirvanee has no awarness whatsoever of the five lower planes. A
person who is alseep or in a coma can gain such knowlege because the silver
cord is not yet severed and psycho-magnetic links with the lower planes
still hold (BTW I got the term psycho-magnetic link from G de Purucker so I
claim no credit for it).


<< I understand what you are saying from the point of view of the 
ego-complex, but not from the perspective of the immortal I. Why and how 
would I ever "entertain the desire for rebirth" if I had no awareness of 
the physical plane? >>

As to the latter, mental images of physical life are available to the
devachaee much like psychic images are available to the sleeping dreamer.
In fact, according to Blavatsky one of the main tasks of the devachanee is
to assimilate the images of the past life/lives. 

Most of us are not aware of the I, and I do not think that the I is aware
of us human beings. In fact, the I is located on the first and highest
plane and has no awareness of any of the six lower planes. Its "ray" on the
second plane has only awareness of that plane and the first. Its "ray" on
the third plane has only an awareness of the upper three planes, and so on
down the planes. If we think of the I in terms of being some kind of
independent god-like being or entity that can move through the planes then
we are making some wrong imputations. When we are embodied, we can have
awareness of all seven planes. This multiple awareness of all seven planes
is only available to human beings during embodiment and is one reason why
the human body is considered necessary to a Path. As a human being, after
certain chakras are activated and prana is directed into the central
channel of the etheric body, planar awareness and milti-dimensional
expeiences become possible as acvailable free choices.


<< I would be an exception then. I did not enter this body until it was a
few 
years old. The body could not yet write and did not record the exact 
calendar date, but enough undistorted tracks of memory are intact that I 
can verify that it was not simultaneous with birth of the body and in fact 
happened on a day when the body was alone.>>

Interesting. This is a type of possession where one personaliy takes over
the body of another. Judge claimed the same thing, so it is certainly
possible, but rare. My sketch was for the average person.

Jerry S.


---
You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: dalval14@earthlink.net
List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l
To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-56348C@list.vnet.net