Theos-Talk Archives (May 2005 Message tt00308)

Hi Nigel,
It's a difficult question and as you know one that can be viewed in 
different ways.

For me at this stage in my reasoning the Society is going to attract 
people into its doors who are on a search for knowledge of a more 
expansive and hopefully mind opening kind.

The TS libraries and book shops tend to cover the A - Z of occult and 
esoteric material, from the most perhaps naïve and even fraudulent 
channeled information to the other end of the spectrum with very deep 
and profound writings from various different traditions.

TS lodges hold lectures on various esoteric subjects some of which to 
me is not suitable or relevant to a theosophical lodge, none the less 
most of the subjects are related to the 3 objects in some way.

Most of the members I've come across in the TS seem to me to be 
genuine truth seekers and support freedom of speech and the concept 
of brotherhood.

While I do not support Leadbeater or his pronouncements, I do support 
members rights to study these works in a TS branch if they so choose 
to do so.

I personally believe Leadbeater teachings needs to be seriously 
compared, challenged and critiqued by students and hope this happens 
more and more as time goes by and I hope that this will happen at 
some point in the official publications.( this maybe a "forlorn hope")

These are some reasons why I have now come to think the Society is 
still worth supporting even with all its problems.

Best wishes 

Perry


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "nhcareyta" <nhcareyta@y...> wrote:
> Dear Perry
> You wrote to Jerry:
> 
> >Maybe the best way you can work within the society is to stay out 
of 
> >the politics as best you can and simply present the theosophical
> >teachings in courses or reading groups...
> 
> This is one option although unfortunately change doesn't occur 
> without engaging the political dimension. And even with this, as 
> Jerry stated recently, the prognosis is not good.
> Moreover, where the "politics" are sufficiently dishonourable, how 
> does one in good conscience continue to support an organisation 
which 
> continues to support such hypocrisy, whose motto is "There is no 
> religion higher than Truth. And would one really wish to attract 
> people to such an organisation in the name of Theosophy?
> Best wishes
> Nigel
> 
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Perry Coles" <perrycoles@y...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Jerry,
> > It's a tangled web isn't it, maybe all we can do is discuss and 
> > explore these issues in whatever limited way we can and theos 
talk 
> > may be that vehicle for this point in time.
> > 
> > We can only do what we can as an individual I suppose and that 
may 
> be 
> > precious little but at least the issues are discussed openly 
> > somewhere.
> > 
> > Maybe the best way you can work within the society is to stay out 
> of 
> > the politics as best you can and simply present the theosophical 
> > teachings in courses or reading groups...
> > 
> > You wrote:
> > 
> > "I don't follow. Do you mean opinion pages, like those found in
> > newspapers or news magazine? Editorials are normally the views of 
> the
> > Editor or the President."
> > 
> > Yes sorry I meant letters to the editor or opinion pages.
> > 
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> > Perry
> > 
> > 
> > -- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@c...> 
> wrote:
> > > Dear Pery,
> > > You wrote:
> > > 
> > > >This is very true and I think the reason I'd like to see 
> critical 
> > > >thinking encouraged more in the societies publications as the 
> > > >general membership would be empowered by having a knowledge of 
> > some 
> > > >of the issues that have shaped the theosophical movement.
> > > >
> > > Critical thinking in the Society's publications certainly would 
> > empower 
> > > the members. But, why would TSA want to empower the members?  
> > Rather, 
> > > the TSA bylaw changes over the last almost twenty years have 
> > > disempowered the members. 
> > > 
> > > >If we are wanting to deepen our knowledge of the theosophia we 
> > need 
> > > >to be able to develop discernment and I would say an ability 
to 
> > give 
> > > >critique but also to take critique.
> > > >
> > > I agree.
> > > 
> > > >Some may argue that this is up to the individual member to do 
> for 
> > > >themselves and to publicly critique a writers perspectives 
> > > >is "untheosophical".
> > > >
> > > Yes, especially when the critique challenges the predominate 
> > paradigm.
> > > 
> > > >Editorials are there for this reason and allow free and open 
> > > >exchange of ideas and also allow a kind of pier review which 
> > > >protects against dogmatism developing.
> > > >
> > > I don't follow. Do you mean opinion pages, like those found in 
> > > newspapers or news magazine? Editorials are normally the 
views 
> of 
> > the 
> > > Editor or the President.
> > > 
> > > >This was the trap Adyar fell into with Leadbeater who took on 
> the 
> > > >role of oracle and who then became untouchable.
> > > >
> > > Yes, under Besant's endorsement he became an "oracle." She 
> > believed in 
> > > him, and most of the membership believed in Besant. 
> > > 
> > > >At least with the advent of the internet the average member is 
> > > >empowered to have their say.
> > > >
> > > Providing the average member owns a computer and has an 
interest 
> in 
> > > internet discussion groups. Yet, even the minority who do so, 
> are 
> > only 
> > > addressing each other. Notice also, that the Management of the 
> > > Theosophical organizations do not participate in these 
> > discussions. One 
> > > Board member made a post a few months ago, and we never hear 
from 
> > > again. No doubt someone had a talk with him. TSA officials 
are 
> > > discouraged from this kind of activity. Their participation 
> would 
> > level 
> > > the playing field--i.e. they would risk losing control of the 
> > rhetoric.
> > > 
> > > >My motivation in pointing these things out has been not to do 
> > damage 
> > > >to the society, nothing could be further from the truth rather 
> its 
> > > >is my hope that the society can grow not necessarily in 
numbers 
> > but 
> > > >in terms of grow as an organisation by facing some of these 
> > issues 
> > > >and the movement as a whole can start to breathe together a 
> little 
> > > >more as a whole.
> > > >
> > > My motivations and my hope too. We've been working at it for 
> > twenty 
> > > years and made some progress. My hope is that someday the 
> > membership 
> > > will wake up and start working together for the common good of 
> the 
> > TM.  
> > > Once this happens, the Organizations, if they want to remain 
> > relevant, 
> > > will have to recognize that the members are going in a 
different 
> > > direction. Then, if the Organizations want to remain their 
> > leadership, 
> > > they will have to run ahead of the crowd and convince everyone 
> that 
> > they 
> > > were going in that direction all of the time.
> > > 
> > > >We don't have to agree on everything in order to start to 
> > cooperate 
> > > >together.
> > > >This surely is the challenge that the truth of `Unity in 
> > diversity' 
> > > >is trying to teach us.
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > We certainly don't have to agree about who is the greatest 
> > Theosophical 
> > > writer, or which is the true Theosophical tradition. We do 
have 
> to 
> > > agree to work together for the Theosophical Movement, which is 
> far 
> > more 
> > > important than any Theosophical Organization. 
> > > 
> > > Jerry
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Perry Coles wrote:
> > > 
> > > >Thanks Jerry,
> > > >You wrote:
> > > >"Unfortunately, most of the TSA membership are "at large" and
> > > >neither know nor particularly care about what is going on at 
the 
> > > >Lodge or the National level."
> > > >
> > > >This is very true and I think the reason I'd like to see 
> critical 
> > > >thinking encouraged more in the societies publications as the 
> > > >general membership would be empowered by having a knowledge of 
> > some 
> > > >of the issues that have shaped the theosophical movement.
> > > >
> > > >If we are wanting to deepen our knowledge of the theosophia we 
> > need 
> > > >to be able to develop discernment and I would say an ability 
to 
> > give 
> > > >critique but also to take critique.
> > > >
> > > >Some may argue that this is up to the individual member to do 
> for 
> > > >themselves and to publicly critique a writers perspectives 
> > > >is "untheosophical".
> > > >
> > > >Editorials are there for this reason and allow free and open 
> > > >exchange of ideas and also allow a kind of pier review which 
> > > >protects against dogmatism developing.
> > > >
> > > >This was the trap Adyar fell into with Leadbeater who took on 
> the 
> > > >role of oracle and who then became untouchable.
> > > >
> > > >At least with the advent of the internet the average member is 
> > > >empowered to have their say.
> > > >
> > > >My motivation in pointing these things out has been not to do 
> > damage 
> > > >to the society, nothing could be further from the truth rather 
> its 
> > > >is my hope that the society can grow not necessarily in 
numbers 
> > but 
> > > >in terms of grow as an organisation by facing some of these 
> > issues 
> > > >and the movement as a whole can start to breathe together a 
> little 
> > > >more as a whole.
> > > >
> > > >We don't have to agree on everything in order to start to 
> > cooperate 
> > > >together.
> > > >This surely is the challenge that the truth of `Unity in 
> > diversity' 
> > > >is trying to teach us.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Regards
> > > >
> > > >Perry
> > > >
> > > >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins 
<jjhe@c...> 
> > > >wrote:
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>Dear Perry,
> > > >>
> > > >>Thank you for you well thought out comments. 
> > > >>
> > > >>    
> > > >>
> > > >>>This process of change I think needs to work from the ground 
> up 
> > > >>>rather than the other way around however a bit of support 
from 
> > up 
> > > >>>above would be nice.
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >>Yes, I think you are quite right. Changes do need to be made 
> > from 
> > > >>    
> > > >>
> > > >the 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>ground up. Unfortunately, most of the TSA membership are "at 
> > > >>    
> > > >>
> > > >large" and 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>neither know nor particularly care about what is going on at 
> the 
> > > >>    
> > > >>
> > > >Lodge 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>or the National level. For those who are active at the local 
> > > >>    
> > > >>
> > > >levels, 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>TSA has a pattern of marginalizing the progressive 
individuals 
> > and 
> > > >>    
> > > >>
> > > >small 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>groups. This had been very effective in preventing any 
> > meaningful 
> > > >>progressive trends from spreading across the membership. 
> > Remember, 
> > > >>    
> > > >>
> > > >only 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>the National Headquarters has the membership list. They not 
> only 
> > > >>control the rhetoric, but control the means of communication 
> > > >>    
> > > >>
> > > >directly to 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>the membership. As for support from above: There have been 
> > > >>    
> > > >>
> > > >progressive 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>Presidents. Over the last 42 years that I personally know 
of, 
> > > >>    
> > > >>
> > > >there 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>have been two of them on the National level, and one 
> progressive 
> > > >>International President. However, once they were out of 
> office, 
> > > >>    
> > > >>
> > > >the 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>more conservative forces moved in to erase their 
> accomplishments. 
> > > >>
> > > >>    
> > > >>
> > > >>>Internet groups like this one offer a forum to debate and 
> > discuss 
> > > >>>these inter-organizational and historical points freely.
> > > >>>I tend to think this will be a process that will need to be 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >walked 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>gently through within the society rather than using a 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >sledgehammer 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>which tends to leave people feeling defensive and 
> antagonistic. 
> > > >>>(rightly or wrongly)
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >>The Internet is indeed a powerful force, and I suspect that 
we 
> > are 
> > > >>    
> > > >>
> > > >only 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>beginning to recognize its impact. It greatest advantage is 
> that 
> > > >>    
> > > >>
> > > >it 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>allows a perfectly even playing field for communication.  
It's 
> > > >>    
> > > >>
> > > >greatest 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>failing is that it allows a perfectly even playing field for 
> > > >>cyber-pathology. The Internet is not our savior. But, 
perhaps 
> > we 
> > > >>    
> > > >>
> > > >will 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>learn to use it as a tool to save ourselves.  
> > > >>
> > > >>Jerry
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>Perry Coles wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>    
> > > >>
> > > >>>Hi All,
> > > >>>Sorry not replying individually but hopefully I can cover 
the 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >some 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>general points in one post.
> > > >>>Thanks Nigel for your comments and as you are aware these 
are 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >issues 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>that will need to be discussed and thought about long and 
hard 
> > as 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >by 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>students and we hope at some time some kind of progress will 
> be 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >able 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>to be made.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>The historical baggage that comes with any person and 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >organization 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>is largely hidden until we scratch deeper. 
> > > >>>The issues and points of view that have been put forward on 
> this 
> > > >>>forum have been quite upfront. 
> > > >>>Some may not find this type of approach un-theosophical, I 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >however 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>find it to be in keeping with the type of criticism that is 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >needed 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>in order to stop any teacher or teaching from becoming 
either 
> an 
> > > >>>infallible Seer or holy writ that then becomes dogma.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>This seems to be somewhat of a luxury in organizations as it 
> is 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >felt 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>they have to play things very diplomatically and try not to 
> > upset 
> > > >>>their members too much.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>As MKR pointed out the internet has now become a vehicle to 
> > > >>>distribute and share this information and I agree with him 
> that 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >this 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>will make a large impact onto the actual organizations 
> > themselves.
> > > >>>Internet groups like this one offer a forum to debate and 
> > discuss 
> > > >>>these inter-organizational and historical points freely.
> > > >>>I tend to think this will be a process that will need to be 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >walked 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>gently through within the society rather than using a 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >sledgehammer 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>which tends to leave people feeling defensive and 
> antagonistic. 
> > > >>>(rightly or wrongly)
> > > >>>
> > > >>>I can't claim to know the solution to these problems however 
> it 
> > > >>>maybe we can sometimes throw the baby out with the 
bathwater. 
> > > >>>The Adyar TS may not be perfect but for me I am glad such an 
> > > >>>organization still exists and as it does I feel offer 
> something 
> > > >>>unique and rare in the world even with its seeming unwritten 
> > > >>>policies on not allowing criticism of C.W Leadbeater's 
> teachings 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >in 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>its official publications.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>The apparent reason for this is that so many members are 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >supporters 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>and promoters of Leadbeater and it is perceived as 
> encroaching 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >on 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>their right to support and promote him.
> > > >>>I have never suggested this should be the case, I have 
simply 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >asked 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>that the right to make a critical comparison of his 
teachings 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >with 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>those of the Mahatma's and Blavatsky's be supported.
> > > >>>At this stage as far as I've been able to ascertain this 
type 
> of 
> > > >>>article would not be allowed to be published in its official 
> > > >>>publications.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>The other side is that the Adyar TS has branches all over 
the 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >world 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>and most members support and promote non dogmatism freedom 
of 
> > > >>>thought.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>It offers libraries and bookshops of esoteric material. 
> > > >>>It also offers opportunities for enquirers to get together 
and 
> > > >>>discuss life's mysteries and most importantly it promotes 
the 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >idea 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>of Brotherhood.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>This process of change I think needs to work from the ground 
> up 
> > > >>>rather than the other way around however a bit of support 
from 
> > up 
> > > >>>above would be nice.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>I'd like to encourage any Adyar members on this group to put 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >forward 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>their feelings and ideas on how these issues may be worked 
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >through 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>or do you feel it is a non issue?
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Regards
> > > >>>Perry
> > > >>>
> > > >>>--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "nhcareyta" 
> <nhcareyta@y...> 
> > > >>>wrote:
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>Dear Perry
> > > >>>>Your summation of three Theosophical organisations is a 
> > > >>>>   
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>conciliatory 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>position given your many postings on your difficulties with 
> > > >>>>   
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>ongoing 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>censorship within the Adyar Society.
> > > >>>>You write:
> > > >>>>   
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>Adyar seems to have chosen to go more down the path of 
simply
> > > >>>>>focusing on the 3 objects generally.
> > > >>>>>     
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>          
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>and
> > > >>>>   
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>Even if there is quite a lot of dis-function in some areas 
> > they 
> > > >>>>>     
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>          
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>all
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>>foster to a greater or lesser extent a spirit of inquiry...
> > > >>>>>     
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>          
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>Whilst as you suggest this is generally true, with the 
second 
> > > >>>>   
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>object 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>of the Adyar Society being "To encourage the study of 
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >comparative 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>>religion, philosophy and science" there is still a great 
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >struggle 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>>   
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>for 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>me to reconcile this admirable and essential statement of 
> > > >>>>   
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>principle 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>with its actual practice by that organisation's hierarchy 
> which 
> > > >>>>   
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>you 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>have encountered and described. 
> > > >>>>Study by comparison includes sharing of perceptions and 
> > opinions 
> > > >>>>without fear or favour, both verbally and in print. As you 
> have 
> > > >>>>   
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>shown 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>us, the Adyar Society hierarchy seems only to permit this 
in 
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >print 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>>   
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>in 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>a highly selective manner. This "philosophical" 
selectivity, 
> as 
> > > >>>>opposed to that needed to ensure decency and decorum, does 
> not 
> > > >>>>support that organisation's "Freedom of Thought" statement 
> nor, 
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >it 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>>seems, their motto "There Is No Religion Higher Than 
Truth." 
> > > >>>>   
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>Whilst 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>their statement and motto may be viewed as ideals only, it 
is 
> > > >>>>disappointing the hierarchy have not appeared to follow 
> Madame 
> > > >>>>Blavatsky's lead when she wrote and practiced "...Contrast 
> > alone 
> > > >>>>   
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>can 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and 
> unless 
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >a 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>>judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly 
come 
> to 
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >a 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>>correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 
> 1881, 
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >p. 
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >>>>   
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>2
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>It is to be hoped that the Society's current and in my 
> > opinion,  
> > > >>>>hypocritical position will be courageously addressed in the 
> > near 
> > > >>>>future thereby potentially attracting and retaining an even 
> > > >>>>   
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>greater 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>number of sincere and honourable seekers such as yourself.
> > > >>>>Very best wishes
> > > >>>>Nigel
> > > >>>>   
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>        
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
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