Theos-Talk Archives (April 2005 Message tt01776)

Dear Christopher,

I think the only difference in our views is that I was speaking of the 
inability of quantum physics, using its basic materialistic premise, to come up with 
any cogent theoretical model that would enable it to cross the barrier 
between the quantum level and the zero-point ... And, I was also pointing out -- 
that unless it adequately incorporates the ideas of Bohm-Pribram and their 
"holographic paradigm" with the most advanced multidimensional hyperspace 
Superstring/M-theory, along with my ABC theory -- its inability to fully explain the 
relationship between consciousness and matter and their interconnections through 
the seven fold layers of fundamental reality ... As, so thoroughly explained 
by Blavatsky and further clarified, hopefully, both geometrically and logically 
in my ABC field model.  

Until such a synthesis, the "hard Problem" posed by philosopher David 
Chalmers of explaining the "experience of consciousness" as well as the equally hard 
problem of neuroscience of explaining the "binding of mind to brain" can never 
be solved using the current theories of physics. 

Therefore, quantum physics, as it now stands, is an incomplete theory... 
Regardless of how close it comes to the metaphysics of Blavatsky. Sure itshidden 
variables and probability laws were foreshadowed in the Secret Doctrine... 
But, that doesn't mean that those concepts make any sense in explaining the 
metaphysical nature of universal reality that goes infinitely deeper and beyond 
the mere physical world they are looking at. How do they explain the nature of 
mind, memory, and all the other fields of consciousness between the 
"particular" world they see and the zero-point of infinite potential? Can the quantum 
physicists imagine that spirit, mind and body are separate entities? Can they 
understand that the bulk of their existence is in and supported by the quantum 
vacuum itself? So many questions. So few answers. So, how can quantum 
physics (in its current expression of QM, QED, QCD, etc., and without considering 
the newer Quantum Field theories) be a valid theory of everything (beyond the 
mere understanding of the physical world) as far as theosophy goes?     
 

In this sense, I was not referring to the actual application of quantum 
theory itself, that very adequately can explain the workings of the material 
universe down to the smallest particle and infer the existence of an infinite 
potential of probabilities in the "vacuum" (to them) of the infinitesimallysmall 
Planck space between the smallest particle and the zero-point. Therefore, as 
far as scientific materialism goes, it seems to be a very valid theory. But 
such scientists aren't interested in the fundamental truth of existence -- so 
long as they understand how "things" work.  

However, what I meant about the quantum theory not having any validity froma 
theosophical point of view, was that it looks at fundamental reality from the 
outside in, and in trying to explain the "indeterminacy" of the quantum level 
in vague terms, completely vitiates their ability to make the connection 
between consciousness and matter -- that must follow rigid fundamental lawsof 
cycles and periodicity -- as explained in the SD.  

That's one of the reasons why relativity theory and quantum theory are 
incompatible with each other, although both are true in their limited realms of 
scientific thought, just as is classical Newtonian physics. This is where 
Einstein's statement that "God doesn't play dice" makes sense... Since, he must have 
intuitively known -- if not by reading the SD, by the mode of thinking that 
lead him to E=mc^2 -- that in each field of consciousness, the laws of 
action-reaction and the correlation of forces are immutable and lead to evolutionary 
processes on each of the seven fold levels of reality that can be explained 
logically and scientifically. The problem with quantum physics is that it doesn't 
recognize that such levels even exist. And, through its current 
configurations, it can never even imply that they do. Thus the quantum physicists invent 
"hidden variables" and "probability" to cover up their ignorance. Just as 
Einstein invented the "gravitational constant" to cover up his inability toexplain 
the expansion of the universe with his mathematics. That is where quantum 
theory, as well as, I might add, relativity theory, are "at odds" with Blavatsky. 
 

Therefore, I agree with you completely in your explanation of how HPB so 
clearly presaged all these modern scientific theories that -- once consolidated 
with an understanding of the infinite divisibility as well as infinite 
expandability of the Absolute zero-point and its surrounding seven layered "spinergy," 
as the "rootless root" of both consciousness and matter -- will ultimately 
arrive at a unified field theory of everything that will prove the truth ofall 
that HPB wrote about in the secret Doctrine -- i.e., pure unadulterated 
theosophy.

AS for the "Ring pass not" I don't think it has anything to do with the 
impassible barrier of quantum indeterminacy, but has to do solely with the first 
sphere of spiritual force in this Cosmos, beyond which human consciousness 
cannot penetrate, since it is the realm of Parabrahm and its infinite possibilities 
of other universes that spin out from the infinite axes of its "spinergy" or 
"abstract motion" of Absolute space.
 
Best wishes,

Leon M

In a message dated 04/17/05 11:25:48 AM, christopherholmes@rogers.com writes:

>Dear Leon, you say, 
>"I would say that theosophy does not consider that the Quantum theory of
>Indeterminacy has any validity -- since it is a contrived concept to cover
>up the fact that this theory cannot predict anything that happens or explain
>the existence of substantial mass-energy or expressed primal Force below
>the quantum level of their supposed fundamental "particles" -- i.e., in
>the "Planck distance" space between these apparent particles and their
>zero-point of origin. Thus, they make up probability laws and "hidden
>variables" that make no reasonable or logical sense -- except in their
>contrived and incomprehensible mathematics -- to work around and attempt
>to explain the paradoxes that reductive materialistic thinking leads them 
to."
>
>I am surprised in ways how you regard Quantum theory at odds with Blavatsky,
>since one can interpret Blavatsky's Secret Doctrine as essentially predicting
>exactly those enigmas faced within quantum theory. I regard the development
>of the uncertainty principle, and quantum theory, as foreshadowed by 
Blavatsky,
>in her explanation of zero point dynamics. So I tend to regard quantum
>theory as all consistent with Blavatsky, although Blavatsky goes further
>into elaborating the nature of the additional 'hidden variables.' You
>say, "Thus, they make up probability laws and "hidden variables" that
>make no reasonable or logical sense," whereas I see that those concepts
>make perfect sense in terms of Blavatsky's own ideas.  
>www.zeropoint.ca/microIII3c-zpfounds.htm,
> 
>I am not sure we're disagreeing so much as having a different perspective
>on the same thing. I see modern quantum theory as strongly supportive
>throughout of the Secret Doctrine--everything from the description of the
>quantum vacuum, as void- plenum, singularity creation, symmetry breaking
>in higher dimensional Space, expansions within without and eventually without
>within to zeropoints, a 7 dimensional hyperspace or Parent Space, Space
>Particles underlying the physics at every point in the four dimensional
>space time complex. All of these ideas in quantum theory, are in my 
perspective,
>confirming Blavatsky's archaic concepts.
> 
>Although in ways I think that I understand your point--at least that the
>uncertainty principle is limited, and no final answer, and yet in other
>ways, I find the paradoxes of quantum theory actually confirm ideas explained
>by Blavatsky, who describes the 'paradoxes' which occur as one attempts
>to trace things to their innermost nature. Blavatsky herself elaborates
>a view of 'hidden variables' underlying quantum processes, as you know.
> Instead of simply saying 'hidden variables,' and the implicate orders,
>Blavatsky actually elaborates on the nature of such things. David Bohm
>talked of an implicate order, and a superimplicate order, all of which
>ideas are within Blavatsky, who even elaborates upon the mechanisms of
>these processes. I am not sure that we are at odds in our respective
>comments, but more the emphasis is different in our accounts. You see
>the theories at odds, whereas I regard the enigmas faced in quantum theory
>as predictable given Blavatsky's framework of
> explanation.  
> 
>Anyway, I'll quote a selection from Chapter III -3, entitled "Zero Point
>Foundations," at www.zeropoint.ca/microIII3c-zpfounds.htm, and afterwards
>pick up again on this letter: 
> 
>____________________________microcosm-macrocosm
>Blavatsky suggests that " ... ‘material points without extension’ 
(zero-points)
>are .. the materials out of which the ‘Gods’ and other invisible powers
>clothe themselves in bodies ... ."
>
>Blavatsky describes these invisible zero points, and how the nominal realm
>acts through such points to ‘inform’ natural phenomenon and the laws of
>nature:
>
>A "neutral center" is, in one aspect, the limiting point of any given set
>of senses. Thus, imagine two consecutive planes of matter as already formed;
>each of these corresponding to an appropriate set of perceptive organs.
>We are forced to admit that between these two planes of matter an incessant
>circulation takes place; and if we follow the atoms and molecules of (say)
>the lower in their transformation upwards, these will come to a point where
>they pass altogether beyond the range of the faculties we are using on
>the lower plane. In fact, to us the matter of the lower plane there vanishes
>from our perception into nothing–or rather it passes on to the higher plane,
>and the state of matter corresponding to such a point of transition must
>certainly possess special and not readily discoverable properties. (pp.147-8)
>
>For Madame Blavatsky, at the heart of matter, or at the heart of the Cosmos,
>or at the heart of the individual, is a zero point laya center–a metaphysical
>foundation rooted within into the Eternal Parent Space and the Infinity
>of the Absolute. The laws of nature which inform manifest creation emerge
>from within/without and the physical realms are sustained always by such
>metaphysical dimensions of Being/Non-Being.
>
>Blavatsky explains that the views of the mystic philosopher Leibnitz 
represent
>The Secret Doctrine teaching of how a dimensionless point within material
>reality might extend inwardly into the infinity of a metaphysical realm:
>
>... Leibnitz ... could not rest content in assuming that matter composed
>of a finite number of very small parts. His mathematical mind forced him
>to carry out the argument in infinitum. And what became of the atoms then?
>They lost their extension and they retained only their property of 
resistance;
>they were the centers of force. They were reduced to mathematical points
>... but if their existence in space was nothing, so much fuller was their
>inner life. Assuming that inner existence, such as that of the human mind,
>is a new dimension, not a geometrical but a metaphysical dimension ...
>having reduced the geometrical extension of the atoms to nothing, Leibnitz
>endowed them with an infinite extension in the direction of their 
metaphysical
>dimension. After having lost sight of them in the world of space, the mind
>has, as it were, to dive into a metaphysical world to find and grasp the
>real essence of what appears in space merely as a mathematical point. . . .
>
>As a cone stands on its point, or a perpendicular straight line cuts a
>horizontal plane only in one mathematical point, but may extend infinitely
>in height and depth, so the essences of things real have only a punctual
>existence in this physical world of space; but have an infinite depth of
>inner life in the metaphysical world ... This is the spirit, the very root
>of occult doctrine and thought. The "Spirit-Matter" and "Matter-Spirit"
>extend infinitely in depth ... . (p. 628)
>
>In this view, any point within the relative time/space continuum extends
>inwardly into the infinity of the metaphysical realm which pervades and
>sustains creation.
>
>In order to understand this doctrine of the zero points, we must realize
>that they are beyond the level of discrimination as far as manifest creation
>is concerned. 
>
>The Chemist goes to the laya or zero-point of the plane of matter with
>which he deals, and then stops short. ... But the full Initiate knows that
>the Ring "Pass Not" is neither locality, nor can it be measured by distance,
>but that is exists in the absoluteness of Infinity. In this "Infinity"
>... there is neither height, breadth nor thickness, but all is fathomless
>profundity, reaching down from the physical to the para-metaphysical. (p.
>156)
>
>The creation and dissolution of any Universe, whether a cosmos, a spiritual
>spark, or a quantum are out of, and back into, zero points. Creation, or
>the descent of spirit into matter, involves the emergence from a zero points.
>Further, the forces of nature are due to activities occurring within/without
>through the inner dynamics of zero points. In physics, these concepts 
anticipate
>modern ideas of the rolled up, compacted dimensions existing at every point
>in the four large dimensions, and serving as the foundations for physical
>laws. They also anticipated modern concepts of creation from singularities,
>and the idea that the universe itself could conceivably dissolve back into
>such a singularity, at the end of time. What Blavatsky describes as the
>zero point, or the Ring Pass Not is at the level of the Planckian units,
>where physical manifestation becomes apparent, and beyond which the lower
>mind and awareness cannot penetrate. 
>
>These remarkable claims of Blavatsky provide profound insights into many
>enigmas and theories of modern science. In the light of Blavatsky’s 
perspective,
>we certainly might have anticipated the formulation of the ‘uncertainty
>principle’ within modern physics. For if we trace any particle back far
>enough, we encounter what Blavatsky calls a ‘ring pass not,’ where the
>quanta or cosmos passes from one plane of perception into a higher 
dimensional
>realm–into an unfathomable and infinite realm. Any particle must so ‘vanish
>from perception’ on a lower plane as we attempt to penetrate its inner
>most nature. And so, if we try to fully determine a particle’s position
>and momentum, it will disappear into the infinite, because this is what
>it emerges from. And, as Blavatsky stated, "... the state of matter 
corresponding
>to such a point of transition must certainly possess special and not readily
>discoverable properties." It is exactly because of these special 
properties,
>that the enigmas of
> quantum physics arise.  
>
>>From Blavatsky’s perspective, the infinities which emerge within the quantum
>field theories are quite appropriate, as any finite thing traced far enough
>into its origins, crosses over into the 'infinite,' or at least a higher
>dimensional level. The uncertainty principle is the natural manifestation
>of this paradox–of zero point sources possessing "special and not readily
>discoverable properties." 
>
>Blavatsky’s profound archaic philosophy was elaborated over twentyyears
>before the formulation of the quantum hypotheses, and a century before
>modern views of creation of the Universe from a singularity. Further, her
>teachings are clearly consistent with modern concepts of vacuum genesis,
>and of the void/plenum. The basic concept of zero point sources is compatible
>with, and supported by, the newest theories and models of both ‘atoms’
>(or quanta) and Cosmos. The Secret Doctrine provides a profoundly alternative
>perspective and interpretation of such modern concepts and theories.
>
>_________________________________
>Dear Leon
> you further say, 
>"However, the more recent view of sub-quantum physics (Bohm, Pribram, etc.)
>regarding "Implicate-Explicate Orders" and the "Holographic Paradigm," along 
>with the view of Greene, Kaku, etc., with respect to Superstring/M-brane
>theories (that consolidates quantum and relativity theories) -- are much 
closer
>to the theosophical and ABC view."
>  
>Yes, it is so remarkable how these theories are all so consistent with
>Blavatsky framework!
> 
>You say: "Nothing in quantum science can explain the "perturbations" of
>the vast amount of electromagnetic energy that exist in this (to them)
>empty vacuum "
> 
> -- yes, all predictable again if one took Blavatsky's Eternal Ceaseless
>Breath, the fundamental holomovement of Bohm, within the Eternal Seven
>Skinned Parent Space-or hyperspace in modern physics-as fundamental 
realities,
>and as the roots for Spirit and Matter.
> 
>Christopher H. 
> 
> 
LeonMaurer@aol.com wrote:

I Thought some of my friends might be interested in this slightly revised 
version of my original letter. Len
------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Dallas, Gopi, others,

With reference to the question of "how Theosophy would address Quantum idea 
with regard to Karma and chance?" ... I would say that theosophy does not 
consider that the Quantum theory of Indeterminacy has any validity -- since 
it is a 
contrived concept to cover up the fact that this theory cannot predict 
anything that happens or explain the existence of substantial mass-energy or 
expressed primal Force below the quantum level of their supposed fundamental 
"particles" -- i.e., in the "Planck distance" space between these apparent 
particles 
and their zero-point of origin. Thus, they make up probability laws and 
"hidden variables" that make no reasonable or logical sense -- except in 
their 
contrived and incomprehensible mathematics -- to work around and attempt to 
explain 
the paradoxes that reductive materialistic thinking leads them to.

Both theosophy as well as ABC (and also Einstein's theory of relativity) 
denies that such "particles" have any real existence... Although, we could 
assume 
they are relatively solid and stabilized individual packets of force) ... 
Since, according to these concepts that consider all matter to be based on 
"coadunate but not consubstantial" fields of energy extending fractally from 
the 
zero-point to infinite extension of space-time -- these vibrational waves of 
primal force or the motion of Space itself that, when tied together in stable 
patterns on the lowest frequency-energy order physical plane, only appear to 
be 
separate "particles"... But, nevertheless, on all levels of such "fields of 
consciousness," they must follow rigid laws of electricity, cycles, cause and 
effect, etc., while obeying the fundamental laws of symmetry, conservation of 
energy, thermodynamics, etc. -- related to the particular frequency-energy 
phase 
order of each fractally involved field. Thus, the constants (e.g., time, 
frequency spectrum, spatial directions, etc.) on each such hyperspace 
coenergetic 
field would vary accordingly. Of course, since quantum physics can't 
objectively observe or measure any of it, in their world, none of it could 
exist. :-)

As Einstein said, in his denial of the validity of the current Copenhagen 
view of quantum theory (Bohr, Heisenberg, etc.) -- "God does not play dice." 

All currently accepted scientific theories are limited by the unfounded 
presumption that physical matter is the only reality... And, thereby, they 
have no 
conception about how the objective matter they can measure is linked to and 
can be affected by subjective consciousness (awareness, thought, will, etc.) 
-- 
which are also fundamental, although non material realities of the overall 
space-time continuum. The laws of Karma depends completely on the unity and 
interconnectivity of these two opposite aspects of fundamental reality, as 
well as 
the immutable laws of cycles and periodicity that determine the actions and 
reactions within and between them. 

Thus, in reality, consciousness is linked to physical matter through the 
Zero-point energy fields which connect them to the absolute zero-point of 
primal 
Space or absolute existence. Therefore, we might say that consciousness is 
everywhere and, thus, nonlocal, unchanging and, thereby, timeless -- while 
matter 
is localized in apparently separate forms that are constantly changing in 
time. 

In this respect, even the relativity physics that considers time as a 
fourth dimension of the metric "space-time continuum" and treats it 
mathematically 
as a vector with respect to the three directional dimensions of globular 
space -- is a wrong view... Since, time is simply the measure of change... 
And, 
when there is no change, there is no time. Einstein knew this, but had to add 
such mathematical contrivances (including his imaginary gravitational 
constant) 
to relate his theory of relativity to quantum physics (which are incompatible 
with each other). Unfortunately, this, and his inability to scientifically 
prove the existence of non metric intermediate coenergetic fields between the 
metric space-time continuum's "particles" and the zero-point prevented him 
from 
coming up with a consistent and valid "unified field theory" that he spent 
the last years of his life searching for a solution.

However, the more recent view of sub-quantum physics (Bohm, Pribram, etc.) 
regarding "Implicate-Explicate Orders" and the "Holographic Paradigm," along 
with the view of Greene, Kaku, etc., with respect to Superstring/M-brane 
theories 
(that consolidates quantum and relativity theories) -- are much closer to the 
theosophical and ABC view. None of these newer theories disagree with Karma 
as the result of inexorable cause=effect through all levels and aspects of 
reality, and neither do they relate such cause and effect to "chance" -- 
since 
they are based on highly complex but only apparently random factors that have 
to 
do with "Complexity-Simplicity" and "Chaos-Order" theories -- that also do 
not recognize any indeterminacy in Natural processes, nor do they contradict 
theosophical metaphysics or the ABC theory and model.

I hope this helps clarify some of the confusion between true theosophical 
science that sees no gaps in either involution or evolution, and conventional 
reductive material science whose unknown and indeterminate gaps between the 
quantum particle and their zero-point of origination add up to be as wide as 
the 
entire Universe. :-) i.e., Nothing in quantum science can explain the 
"perturbations" of the vast amount of electromagnetic energy that exist in 
this (to 
them) empty vacuum -- whose reality was proven in 1948 by the Casimir effect. 


But, then, they don't need such zero-point energy (ZPE) to make our solid 
state electronic cell phones, computers, DVD's, and other digital do dads 
work... 
So, why should they bother trying to understand it? :-)

Best wishes,

Leon Maurer

P.S. But there are still some of us dogged (possibly "Mad" ;-) 
scientist/philosophers around who still think that finding the ultimate truth 
is worth the 
search, no matter how many ikons and contrived notions of reality are exposed 
and washed away in the process. 

In a message dated 01/11/05 9:06:34 AM, dalval14@earthlink.net writes:

Jan 11 2004

Dear Lenny:

If you have time could you look at this question? Possibly answer?

I don't have a brief on QUANTUM THEORY -- at least enough to 
use to answer. Might not INDETERMINACY also apply? In any 
case how does the ABC THEORY handle this?

Problem is grasping (I think) that KARMA antecedes all manifestation and, as
in indissoluble part of the ABSOLUTE (as is everything else of course), it
operates unerringly and faithfully to the MOTIVE of the chooser. 

No question of "luck" or "chance," or "indeterminacy" ever. Always LAW. 

The IMMORTALITY of every MONAD (regardless of its "level" of advancement on 
the "ladder of Being,") guarantees that eventually all disturbance in
universal equilibrium gets returned to its disturber -- its source. 

I would say that our "Lower-Mind" is always on the prowl to discover if
there are any chinks in the KARMIC plenum.

If any can be found then the whole Theosophical philosophy falls to the
ground and is as useless as any other -ism or hypothesis. 

----------------

ENQUIRER. How, then, should Theosophical principles be applied so that
social co-operation may be promoted and true efforts for social amelioration
be carried on? 

THEOSOPHIST. Let me briefly remind you what these principles are --
universal Unity and Causation; Human Solidarity; the Law of Karma;
Re-incarnation. These are the four links of the golden chain which should
bind humanity into one family, one universal Brotherhood. Key p. 233

-----------------------

Thanks, 

And always best wishes, 

Dal


---------------

QUESTIONS ASKED

G I raised question about how Theosophy would address Quantum idea
with regards to Karma and chance. -- Gopi asks.