Theos-Talk Archives (April 2005 Message tt00390)

> Jerry,
> After Krishnamurti left TS, if all policies and focus had kept as it
> was under leadership of Annie Besant then lost members would have
> been replaced by new members and TS would have remained vibrant
> organization.
> My opinion is Krishnamuti's leaving could have only temporary
> setback. Policies and focus should have been kept as they were
> earlier.
> My lodge has very young membership of very qualified people, total
> 110 members. This despite management's policy of not advertizing.
> Apart from that we have displayed Krishnamurti's photo in the Lodge.
> Most members respect both Theosophy and consider Krishnamurti as
> World-Teacher. They study mostly AB and CWL's books and like them
> very much.
> Fear that Krishnamurti's references in books and elsewhere cause
> problems for Theosophical movement is not right. There are lot of
> things to learn from how K was found, raised and how he later became
> a great teacher as predicted almost twenty years in advance by Mr.
> Leadbeater and Besant.
> In entire history of TS golden days for the Theosophical Society 
were
> when Annie Besant was President.AB and CWL wrote very high quality
> literature. That was received around the world very well. Result was
> membership was all time high of more than 45000. If we continue to
> focus on same literature it will again produce very positive 
results,
> this time on much greater scale because other conditions have become
> much more favorable.
> Anand Gholap
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Anand Gholap" 
<AnandGholap@A...> 
> wrote:
> > 
> > Jerry,
> > After Krishnamurti left TS, if all policies and focus had kept as 
> it 
> > was under leadership of Annie Besant then lost members would have 
> > been replaced by new members and TS would have remained vibrant 
> > organization. 
> > My opinion is Krishnamuti's leaving could have only temporary 
> > setback. Policies and focus should have been kept as they were 
> > earlier.
> > My lodge has very young membership of very qualified people, 
total 
> > 110 members. This despite management's policy of not advertizing. 
> > Apart from that we have displayed Krishnamurti's photo in the 
> Lodge. 
> > Most members respect both Theosophy and consider Krishnamurti as 
> > World-Teacher. They study mostly AB and CWL's books and like them 
> > very much. 
> > Fear that Krishnamurti's references in books and elsewhere cause 
> > problems for Theosophical movement is not right. There are lot of 
> > things to learn from how K was found, raised and how he later 
> became 
> > a great teacher as predicted almost twenty years in advance by 
Mr. 
> > Leadbeater and Besant. 
> > In entire history of TS golden days for the Theosophical Society 
> were 
> > when Annie Besant was President.AB and CWL wrote very high 
quality 
> > literature. That was received around the world very well. Result 
> was 
> > membership was all time high of more than 45000. If we continue 
to 
> > focus on same literature it will again produce very positive 
> results, 
> > this time on much greater scale because other conditions have 
> become 
> > much more favorable.
> > Anand Gholap 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@c...> 
> > wrote:
> > > Anand,
> > > 
> > > Perhaps, the best way to, at least, partially answer your 
> question 
> > is 
> > > from an historical perspective. When Krishnamurti closed the 
> Order 
> > of 
> > > the Star and left the Theosophical Society (1930), the 
leadership 
> > was, 
> > > for a time left "flat footed" so to speak. Jinarajadasa's 
> > comments in 
> > > the ES material published at that time is quite revealing. CJ 
> was 
> > quite 
> > > incredulous that after pretty much growing up with K. and with 
> > Nitya and 
> > > George Arundale forming sort of an inner group under CWL, 
> > Krishnamurti 
> > > was throwing all of that aside. K's early public talks after 
> > leaving 
> > > the TS were very discounting of the Teachings and of the 
Masters. 
> > > 
> > > When George Arundale became President in 1934, he took the tack 
> of 
> > > ignoring Krishnamurti and tried to put the TS on a different 
> > tract. 
> > > Basically Arundale took the public stand that Theosophy is 
> > everything 
> > > and anything that the public wanted it to be. If the public 
was 
> > > interested in the arts, he made the arts Theosophy. If they 
were 
> > > interested in politics, he made politics Theosophy. It was a 
> very 
> > busy 
> > > time of printing tens of thousands of pamphlets and flyers all 
> > devoid of 
> > > meningful content. It was also the beginning of the editing of 
> > > Theosophical texts so as to remove references to K. and others 
> > > embarrassments to the TS. While all of this reforming 
Theosophy 
> > for 
> > > the public was going on, the ES was still very strong and 
> > maintained 
> > > their own traditions. So, there became two Theosophies. One 
for 
> > the 
> > > public, and one for the insiders. In other words, for the 
> public, 
> > > Theosophy was anything they wanted it to be. The problem is 
that 
> > when 
> > > Theosophy became everything, it did not escape the attention of 
> > most 
> > > enquirers that Theosophy is then--nothing. By the time 
Arundale 
> > died in 
> > > 1945, the membership of the TS had fallen to the lowest level, 
> and 
> > has 
> > > never really recovered.
> > > 
> > > When I joined TSA in 1963, Theosophy was not a popular 
subject. 
> > The TS 
> > > members were all very elderly, and the Lodges were filled with 
> > Victorian 
> > > furniture. Most of the members who were the active workers 
20s 
> > and 30s 
> > > were still alive and made up most of the membership. I 
remember 
> > > Catherine Mays, Dora and Fritz Kunz, the Layton's etc. 
Everyone 
> > was 
> > > excited when I joined because I was "fresh blood" as they 
said. 
> > But I 
> > > was also of a very different generation than theirs. I would 
> knock 
> > them 
> > > off balance by asking probing questions, challenged the status 
> > quo. I 
> > > saw nothing wrong with modern music and modern culture, while 
on 
> > the 
> > > other hand, members believed that Jazz was created by Black 
> > Magicians. 
> > > You could imagine what they though of Rock n Roll. As the 60's 
> > > progressed into the psychedelic age, with hippies, Tim Leary, 
> Alan 
> > > Watts, and the Beatles, more people closer to my age began to 
> drift 
> > into 
> > > TS, but the TSA leadership did not know how to deal with them.
> > > 
> > > I remember those early Lodge lectures. Old timers would give 
> talks 
> > > throwing out phrases like "the inner government of the world" 
> > and "the 
> > > path to the Masters" and "the Great White Brotherhood" but they 
> > were 
> > > singing to the choir. They did not bother to explain to newbys 
> > what 
> > > they were talking about. There was no viable educational 
program 
> > then. 
> > > By the late 60's Headquarters responded by devising a series of 
> > monthly 
> > > letters for new members. By that time, I already was well into 
> my 
> > own 
> > > reading and consequently found their letters, like their 
> pamphlets 
> > > rather devoid of meaningful content. 
> > > 
> > > When Dora Kunz became President in the late 70s she began to 
> > initiate a 
> > > policy to built up the Lodges and broke a long standing 
tradition 
> > by 
> > > inviting young members who were talented but not ES members to 
> > volunteer 
> > > to work at Olcott. The membership under her approached to 
nearly 
> > 8,000 
> > > at one point. When she left in 1986, the new management began 
to 
> > > dismantle and undermine everything she accomplished. The new 
> tactic 
> > was 
> > > centralization. There was a lot of in-fighting and some nasty 
> > > marginalization of some active members who did not agree with 
the 
> > new 
> > > program. A lot of people left the TS in disgust, and at the 
same 
> > time, 
> > > members from the Arundale days were passing away. When John 
> Algeo 
> > > became President, TSA membership dropped to under 4,000 at one 
> > > point--about 1/2 of the maximum membership under Dora Kunz. 
> > > 
> > > So, what you have now in TSA is a general public, most of whom 
do 
> > not 
> > > belong to a Lodge and do not have the support of a study group 
> for 
> > the 
> > > study of Theosophy. The classic texts are available, but they 
> are 
> > in 
> > > an edited form. For those interested in history, there is 
> a "party 
> > > line" history that is taught, but it is not very comprehensive--
> and 
> > very 
> > > misleading. While TSA is beginning to promote Study Courses, 
> what 
> > they 
> > > teach is a very sanitized version of Theosophy. It is what 
they 
> > want 
> > > the members to know, and nothing more. 
> > > 
> > > This is not a complete answer, but I hope it gives you a 
> > direction. 
> > > Perhaps, in future discussions, we can develop some of the 
themes 
> > which 
> > > I only hinted at here.
> > > 
> > > Best
> > > Jerry
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Anand Gholap wrote:
> > > 
> > > >Jerry,
> > > >What could be the reasons according to you for members not 
> having 
> > > >much knowledge of Theosophy?
> > > >Anand Gholap
> > > >
> > > >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins 
<jjhe@c...> 
> > > >wrote:
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>Anand,
> > > >>
> > > >>He we agree. I also believed that books should be reprinted 
as 
> > > >> 
> > > >>
> > > >they 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>were left by the authors. I would not even bother to change 
> the 
> > > >> 
> > > >>
> > > >English 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>spellings. However, I don't have any occult reasons for this 
> > > >> 
> > > >>
> > > >opinion. 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>I simply believe that authors ought to be allowed to stand or 
> > fall 
> > > >> 
> > > >>
> > > >based 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>upon what they actually wrote. I have to hand it to ULT 
for 
> > > >> 
> > > >>
> > > >being the 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>only Theosophical organization which reprinted Blavatsky's 
and 
> > > >> 
> > > >>
> > > >Judge's 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>writing in their original form, while other organizations 
were 
> > > >> 
> > > >>
> > > >changing 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>them or allowing them to go out of print. Of course, ULT did 
> not 
> > > >>reprint Besant and Leadbeater's writings, but that would have 
> > been 
> > > >>outside of their mission statement to have done so. 
> > > >>
> > > >>There was an excellent article done a few years ago by 
Gregory 
> > > >> 
> > > >>
> > > >Tillett 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>for the Theosophical History journal which reviewed the 
changes 
> > the 
> > > >>Adyar TS had made in Besant's and Leadbeater's books over the 
> > > >> 
> > > >>
> > > >years. 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>The article was reprinted in the ACT newsletter. It would be 
> > nice 
> > > >> 
> > > >>
> > > >if 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>Drs Tillett and Santucci would permit this article to be put 
> > > >> 
> > > >>
> > > >online. I 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>think it is a very important article, because, people who buy 
> > > >> 
> > > >>
> > > >current 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>editions of their books are rarely aware that they have been 
> > edited 
> > > >> 
> > > >>
> > > >in 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>any significant way. 
> > > >>
> > > >>Jerry
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>Anand Gholap wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> 
> > > >>
> > > >>>Jerry,
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>As you see, I did not say that this material *contains* 
> > writings 
> > > >>>> 
> > > >>>>
> > > >of AB 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>>> 
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>and CWL, but is based upon their ideas and uses their 
> > terminology.
> > > >>>> 
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> 
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>My opinion on this is books should be printed exactly as 
they 
> > > >>>originally appeared without abridgement. For printing 
largest 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >edition 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>>of the book should be taken. e.g. Masters and the Path was 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >enlarged by 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>>Mr. Leadbeater himself and so for printing this largest 
> edition 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >should 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>>be taken. Only spelling may be changed to suit current US 
> > English. 
> > > >>>e.g. realisation (old British) would become realization. I 
am 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >totally 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>>against making more changes. 
> > > >>>For making study course also original books of Annie Besant 
> and 
> > > >>>Leadbeater, written in their own language, should be 
> > recommended. 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >Not 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>>only English of AB and CWL is among the best even by today's 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >standard 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>>but there are occult reasons for recommending their original 
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >writing. 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >>>Anand Gholap
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >>> 
> > > >>>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > >