Theos-Talk Archives (January 2005 Message tt00915)

Pedro wrote :
"I have read it and I can't find any indication that he claimed that
the book THE ASTRAL PLANE, or for that matter, any of his books, was
certified, validated or authenticated by a Master!"

Pedro I am amazed you don't see this implication here.

How do you interpret Leadbeater's statements then and what
implications do you draw from them.

Do you believe he was trained under a Master?

You asked regarding why he should clearly point out to students that
his version of things was contradictory :

"Why should he do this? He was presenting the results of his own
studies."

Very simple answer because he and the society presented his teachings
to the world as being `theosophy' in books such as `TEXTBOOK of
theosophy'.
If he was as he claimed to be an initiated chela he would have been by
default deceiving members into thinking his observations match his
teachers, which they clearly did not.

HPB and T Subba Row openly debated their differences of opinion.

You wrote :
"I see that you do not extend the spirit of brotherhood to a deceased
theosophical author (Leadbeater), for in your message you called him a
liar, a dishonest and irresponsible man. It is true that he has been
called much worse things on this list and for the past one hundred years.

Well, who said brotherhood was ever important?"


Are you suggesting here Pedro that supporting and perpetuating lies is
Brotherhood?


Perry




--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "prmoliveira" <prmoliveira@y...> wrote:
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Perry Coles" <perrycoles@y...>
wrote:
> 
>  
> 
> > Here's a quote from CWL to reflect upon in order to see the undeniable
> > implication he is making here.
> > 
> > p8 THE ASTRAL PLANE
> > "A good example of the sort of mistake that is likely to occur is the
> > frequent reversal of any number which the seer has to read in the
> > astral world, so that he would be liable to render, say, 139 as 931,
> > and so on. In the case of a student of occultism trained by a capable
> > Master such a mistake would be impossible except through great hurry
> > or carelessness, since such a pupil has to go through a long and
> > varied course of instruction in this art of seeing correctly. The
> > Master, or perhaps some more advanced pupil, brings before him again
> > and again all possible forms of illusion, and asks him, What do you
> > sec? Any errors in his answers are then corrected and their reasons
> > explained, until by degrees the neophyte acquires a certainty and
> > confidence in dealing with the phenomena of the astral plane which far
> > exceeds anything possible in physical life. He has to learn not only
> > to see correctly but to translate accurately, from one plane to the
> > other, the memory of what he has seen. To assist him in this he has
> > eventually to learn to carry his consciousness without break from the
> > physical plane to the astral or mental and back again, for until that
> > can be done there is always a possibility that his recollections may
> > be partially lost or distorted during the blank interval which
> > separates his periods of consciousness on the various planes."
> > 
> > 
> > Here we can clearly see Leadbeater claimed to have been trained under
> > a Master and that the Master would point out "Any errors in his
> > answers are then corrected.
> 
> 
> Perry:
> 
> I have read it and I can't find any indication that he claimed that
> the book THE ASTRAL PLANE, or for that matter, any of his books, was
> certified, validated or authenticated by a Master! The books were
> written under his name and were the results of his own investigations.
> Regarding the subject of training on the astral plane, he is basically
> offering an opinion. I have said many times here on this list that
> Leadbeater did not expect people to believe his clairvoyant
descriptions.
> 
> In the last paragraph of the Introduction to the same book he writes:
> 
> "However, just as the explorer on the physical plane would probably
> commence his account of a country by some sort of general description
> of its scenery and characteristics, so it will be well to begin this
> slight sketch of the astral plane by endeavouring to give some idea of
> the scenery which forms the background of its marvelous and
> ever-changing activities. Yet here at the outset an almost insuperable
> difficulty confronts us in the extreme complexity of the matter. All
> who see fully on that plane agree that to attempt to call up a vivid
> picture of this astral scenery before those whose eyes are as yet
> unopened is like speaking to a blind man of the exquisite variety of
> tints in a sunset sky - however detailed and elaborate the
> descrip­tion may be, there is no certainty that the idea presented
> before the hearer's mind will be an adequate representation of the
truth."
> 
> Note the statement: "there is no certainty that the idea presented
> before the hearer's mind will be an adequate representation of the
truth."
> 
> 
> > He may have said you can believe this or not, but that is quite a
> > different thing from not pointing out to his readers and followers how
> > his teachings clashed with those of the Adept teachers of Blavatsky he
> > claimed to be a Chela and student of.
> 
> 
> Why should he do this? He was presenting the results of his own
> studies. And
> 
> "The fact is, that to the last and supreme initiation every chela -
> (and even some adepts) - is left to his own device and counsel." (ML
> 92, chronological)
> 
> 
> > I hope we can explore these points in a spirit of brotherhood as 2
> > fellow students seeking truth rather than antagonists.
> > 
> > Sincerely 
> > 
> > Perry
> 
> 
> I see that you do not extend the spirit of brotherhood to a deceased
> theosophical author (Leadbeater), for in your message you called him a
> liar, a dishonest and irresponsible man. It is true that he has been
> called much worse things on this list and for the past one hundred
years.
> 
> Well, who said brotherhood was ever important?
> 
> 
> Pedro