Theos-Talk Archives (January 2005 Message tt00885)

Hallo Daniel and all,

My views are:

Let us take the two following quotes by first HPB and then by CWL.
Taken from the link http://blavatskyarchives.com/morganafterdeath.htm

1. HPB
" According to the Eastern teaching, the state of the deceased in Kama-loka 
is not what we, living men, would recognise as "conscious." . . . the 
process of stripping off the lower . . . principles is an unconscious one in 
all normal human beings. It is only in very exceptional cases that there 
is a slight return to consciousness in Kama-loka; and this is the case of 
very materialistic unspiritual personalities. "
Blavatsky, H.P. Collected Writings, Volume IX, p. 164.

2. CWL
"The average man has by no means freed himself from all lower desires 
before death, and it takes a long period of more or less fully conscious 
life on the various subdivisions of the astral plane to allow the forces 
which he has generated to work themselves out, and thus release the ego. . . 
. "
Leadbeater, C.W. The Astral Plane, 8th Adyar ed., p. 49.


In the above we withness HPB use the words --- the deceased in Kama-loka is 
not what we, living men, would recognise as "conscious."--- and --- 
unconscious one in all normal human beings ---
Her use of words implies - as I read the words - that this is what happens 
for the average human being on our planet of evolution.
Her use of the word "unconscious" refers to the state of consciousness just 
as she forwards the words - with regard for the average human being. Ie. - 
"unconscious" in the sense, that the human is very much more overhwelmed 
with emotions than when incarnated into the physical. Her last sentence in 
the above refers only to special cases when very materialistic unspiritual 
personalities are involved. (She does not mention what happens when an 
initiated or more developed human being dies.)

How ever it is a fact, that a more developed human being will be 
experienceing something quite different than what HPB has written in the 
above. Such a being will experience, that the state of being deceased is to 
be recognized as "conscious" to a certain degree. This coincides with CWL's 
views. Although his words in ( Leadbeater, C.W. To Those Who Mourn, pp. 
21-22. http://www.theosophical.ca/ToThoseWhoMourn.htm ) are not very 
precise. Being "conscious" - namely to the justified degree of spiritual 
development and karmic circumstances. And is not as HPB says in the above as 
"unconscious", which only counts when we talk about the average human being. 
But, that is or was the most common experience among human beings dying back 
then - and also today although to a lesser extend.

But I have to be careful about what I am saying because the quotes which we 
refer to taken from the following link
http://blavatskyarchives.com/morganafterdeath.htm with column I and II, - 
contains several quotes by Leadbeater taken out of context.
And in fact some of Leadbeaters quotes refers to the "conscious" deceased, 
which also HPB mentions (as a special case) in the above quote from her 
hand.
The problem is how ever, that Leadbeater was not always very precise in his 
discriptions. So the readers might be mislead, if they weren't explained the 
angle Leadbeater covers the subject from. But I also recall HPB as being 
carelees in her own descriptions about other issues, but her scriptures 
target group was most often a different one than Leadbeaters. The difference 
is that HPB often clouded her scriptures in allegories and non-dead-letter 
writings while emphasizing that she did this. Wheras Leadbeater almost never 
talks about the use of this, allegories and the seven keys in his writings. 
Leadbeater instead writes using a writingstyle which has a different target 
group - the one which likes what we can call popular reading.
The last sentences are very important and tends to be overlooked.

Leadbeater writes in Leadbeater, C.W. To Those Who Mourn, pp. 21-22:
"All this, of course, is during our waking hours; when we are asleep, they 
converse with us as of yore on earth. Here in our physical life we can 
dissemble our feelings; in that higher world this is impossible, for they 
show themselves instantly in visible change. Since so many of our thoughts 
are connected with our feelings, most of these also are readily obvious in 
that world; but anything in the nature of abstract thought is still hidden." 
...and the text continues...
http://www.theosophical.ca/ToThoseWhoMourn.htm

Geoffrey Hodson also writes about these things:
http://www.theosophical.ca/GatewayDeath.htm

So far my views.


from
M. Sufilight with peace and love...



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" <danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com>
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 7:11 PM
Subject: Theos-World Sufilight on the words UNCONSCIOUSNESS and 
CONSCIOUSNESS


> Sufilight,
>
> You wrote:
>
> ====================================================
> It is simply a question about the definitions used
> in the words UNCONSCIOUSNESS and CONSCIOUSNESS.
> CWL simply defined the word UNCONSCIOUSNESS differently than HPB
> when he talked about Kamaloka in the above link.
> ===================================================
>
> Can you tell us HOW CWL defined the word UNCONSCIOUSNESS differently?
>
> Using the examples at:
>
> http://blavatskyarchives.com/morganafterdeath.htm
>
> what was CWL's definition and why was it different from that
> of Blavatsky and Koot Hoomi?
>
> I'm trying to understand your contention but I am not at all clear as
> to what you are actually trying to say.
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links