Theos-Talk Archives (December 2004 Message tt00316)

Dec 22 2004

Dear K:

You are right that there is apparently a continued link (astral, magnetic,
pranic ?) between the material (and its underlying support on the astral
plane) supplied (blood, tissue, organs, etc...) of the donor to the donee.

I am not sure of all the rules involved. In ISIS UNVEILED, (Vol. 1, p. 207,
246) HPB notes that a piece of flesh donated to repair a nose, "died"
later, when the donor died. This is attributed there to "magnetic sympathy"
and in addition it is said to relate to inter-plant sensitivities.

I have heard some cases where recipients have felt the urge to act or copy
aspects of the nature of the donor after receiving blood, organs, etc... So
there may be something to it, other than a mere mechanical transfer of
operating parts. So why are they not made of plastic or some other materials

I have no idea what happens nowadays with the complicated suppressants used
to permit such grafting. It would be interesting to get more data on the
subject.

Theosophy gives no rules that compel anyone to do anything, nor does it make
pronouncements as to "compassion," or "fear of consequences."   

The laws of Nature are discussed, and outlined. Men are individually left
free to make use of the information on whatever basis they elect. That
there is a moral effect in addition to physical ones is made clear.  

Best wishes,

Dallas

=================================
 
-----Original Message-----
From: 
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 10:45 AM
To: 
Subject: assassin, Transfusions, muyrder's hand and reincarnation _ Krishtar


Friend Dal

Hi everybody.

Glad to hear from you again .

I cannot comment this email entirely now but I wanted to say that i once
watched a trash movie in which the hand of an assassin being transplanted
into an innocent man and then caused him acting so strange... and I cannot
remember if he became or not a murderer...

I also know that some people need a psychiatrist after a liver or heart
transplant.
Is it psychological influence ( living with an alien part in your body ) or
occult laws in action? .....
.
Dallas, doesn´t the karma attached to a body that has no life anymore finish
when the physical ego is released to the other spheres and won´t the earth
decompose the organs anyway too?

And once the organs are left they are transformed in organic matter,
non-organized again.

So the karma from the body parts are also transferred to the worms and
bacterias, since everything is alive.

Won´t the useful organs be more useful to someone who has the necessity of
transplant than to the decompositors?

Just views...
Krishtar

====================================
----- Original Message ----- 

From: W.Dallas TenBroeck 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 12:09 PM
Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed Transfusions and
reincarnation



Dec. 20 2004

Re: Blood Transfusions, Organ donations, etc.
Transfusions and reincarnation

Dear Perry:

The application of technical medical processes is one thing. The motive
behind the application is another.

The processes of asepsis in hospitals and clinics are well known but not
always applied meticulously.  

But who knows the effect of the moral contagions inherent in another's
body
as a result of their life and karma? If and when this (a portion of
another's Karma) is injected or introduced into another living body, a
portion of the Karma comes along with the physical blood or organ There
are
enough cases on record of the subsequent feelings and problems that have
been found to be consequent on the use of these processes. 

THEOSOPHY deals with laws and explanations and observations impartially.  

It shows the astral structures and the "pranic-life currents" underlie
the
physical organs, blood and other structures. It says they impart their own
imprint in terms of life-memories and strengths (or weaknesses) wherever
they go. The physical blood or organ conveys them. They are also conveyed
by massage, and acupressure for instance, and above all by the inner and
powerful WILL of the doctor, nurse massager or practitioner. 

The blood or organs of another person, no matter how closely related, are
different from ours.  

THEOSOPHY does not recommend such exchanges. I know this seems to violate
current rules and attitudes. Next question is WHY ?

How we make application is another thing altogether, as the moral aspect
is
involved and Karma is formed there, based on motive always.

Lets ask another question. If THEOSOPHY is right in this, what effect has
such an exchange on the karma of the two Egos involved -- for their future
in their present life, and in a future life upon reincarnation ? Is this
intimate relationship continued and desirable? What will be the karma of
those who facilitate or participate in these processes? Is that not to be
thought of? 

I know this all sound vague and fuzzy, but that is because the matter is
yet
to be seized and made a part of investigation. Who believes in
reincarnation anyway? The Chinese systems of the meridians in the body,
whereon is built their system of acupuncture and acupressure; the Indian
Ayurvedic lore is well aware of bodily meridians and interlinks, and
practice here in the West of several kinds including Chiropractic is also
built on this knowledge. Who has made a systematic investigation of these
systems and ancient knowledge? 

No one "likes" fire to burn, or water to "drown." However, if misused
they
do that impartially and without malice.

None of us are yet able to determine the future of another, in this or a
future body.. If however we can use and apply the best techniques to save
life we do that with the motive of assistance.

As for myself, (not a child) I have given strict instructions that no
blood
transfusions are to be made in case I need them medically, nor are any
"heroic measures" to keep the body "alive" are to be used in case of coma
or
other determination of the passing away of consciousness. I do this in
advance of any situation where I might be unable to assure medical or
legal
authorities that it is my desire to let my body die if it cannot heal and
revive itself . But I am an adult, and, taking full responsibility, I
can
decide for myself what I will accept or not as treatment for my body.

It is quite ridiculous to fear death. We don't fear sleeping, do we? And
who is to say that our consciousness will return on awakening to the same
body? In case of continued wakefulness under forced sleep deprivation it
has been demonstrated that eventually these cause sleep or death. 

But to decide for a child -- that is a matter for parents to consider as
they have that duty, under Karma. I know this is an "open door." But
again
THEOSOPHY does not dogmatize for specific cases It says in effect: Use
your common sense. Discover the Principles that are operative in all
cases,
and apply them.  

In these days, to maintain a sure and fearless belief in reincarnation is
rare. But then, who has yet seen or discussed the matter with the REAL
INNER
SPIRIT of any man or woman so far ? [ Or even in meditation with one's
own
Inner SELF ? Only THEOSOPHY speaks of this, and indicates ways in which it
may be done.] 

No, our sole knowledge is that the INNER SPIRIT, our Real Self, requires
specifically a continuity in a single body; and its condition, before or
after the death of that present body, is quite unknown and unprovable so
far. Current beliefs state that the body and the indwelling SPIRIT are the
same thing. But are they? 

No, THEOSOPHY does not dogmatize, but it does offer the rules and facts of
life, as it know it too be.

Dal



Dallas
   

-----Original Message-----
From: Perry Coles [mailto:perrycoles@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 4:47 PM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed



Hi Dallas,

I hope your well ,

As with all things we as individuals need to try and use wise
discernment and certainly when it comes to ourselves our choices are
our own based on our knowledge and understanding of occult principles.

But when it comes to children who lives could have been saved by a
blood transfusion, I simply find it outrageous that these children
have been allowed to die over a discission made by the parents because
of the blind following of dogma.

I hope no theosophical student would ever follow any theosophical
statement blindly no matter who wrote it.

Theosophical study is one as you know that takes lifetimes of work and
is not meant to be followed blindly but rather Self realised.
The information may or may not be correct we can never presume that it
is correct especially if a persons life other than our own hangs in
the balance.
What we choose for ourselves is another matter.

Sorry to hear you've been in hospital hope alls ok!

Regards

Perry


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck"
<dalval14@e...> wrote:
> Dec 19 2004
> 
> Dear Perry:
> 
> What you say is correct and reflects the current medical view.
> 
> They know nothing of Occultism.
> 
> Preserving life in an old, decrepit and almost useless body is
ridiculous in
> the face of individual immortality and reincarnation -- which are
spoofed at
> by present day materialism in medicine and even law.
> 
> Let me put it this way: THEOSOPHY teaches a number of things that
> materialism currently does not know anything about. That does not make
> THEOSOPHY either dogmatic or wrong.  
> 
> But it ought to encourage deeper research.
> 
> The application of knowledge is always left to the one who provides
it. The
> motive for providing it is the desideratum of Karma.
> 
> In THEOSOPHY ethics and morals are everything. Science does not yet
accept
> those. 
> 
> So it is up to us to use or not use.
> 
> Dallas
> 
> ============================
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Perry Coles [mailto:perrycoles@y...] 
> Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 7:50 PM
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] help needed
> 
> 
> 
> Hello Dallas,
> I was a little concerned over your comments on blood transfusions and
> organ donations.
> As an ex JW I know the needless and pointless suffering and waste of
> life that can result from these type of dogmatic beliefs.
> 
> The ethical dimension to this is to me not just a matter of our
> attachment to the body and/or the occult effects of having someone
> else's blood in our veins but if we are able to extend our life though
> either a blood transfusion or organ donation are we not duty bound to
> use whatever means we can to either save someone else's
> (especially!!!) life or our own as long as it is not at the cost of
> another's?
> 
> The occult consequences of these procedures while perhaps coming at a
> price may be far outweighed by the good we can do while in incarnation.
> 
> Perry
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck"
> <dalval14@e...> wrote:
> > Dec 18 2004
> > 
> > Dear Vera:
> > 
> > You asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations - does
THEOSOPHY
> > offer anything.
> > 
> > 
> > THEOSOPHY does not recommend either of these for the reason that the
> astral
> > body and Karma attached to those are always incompatible and
> dangerous to
> > some extent. 
> > 
> > Physical medicine and the science of modern healing look on the
> human body
> > as a fairly adaptable series if interchangeable parts - which is
> not so.
> > 
> > The Universe organizes through the astral body each person with
> their own
> > particular set of personalized and individual organs and substances.
> These
> > are always related to the individual's Karma. 
> > 
> > To some extent Medical science recognizes incompatibilities such as
> in blood
> > transfusions and the compatibility (by DNA testing) of proposed organ
> > transplants (heart, lungs, etc. ) and cures for cancer attacked
> parts of the
> > body. 
> > 
> > One of our problems is psychological: Most fear death. Those who
> have had
> > NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES ( NDE ) have lost such fear as they
realize that
> > they as SPIRITUAL SOULS survive physical death. Med. Sc. Tries to
> preserve
> > "life"-- at any cost, in the most shattered of physical bodies.
> > 
> > THEOSOPHY states all bodies are replaceable under nature's rules and
> laws.
> > And while everyone grieves for the loss of a loved one, There is the
> > knowledge that under Karma we will all meet again, and love and
live and
> > work together, in the future. [ For example, we don't grieve when
> one goes
> > to sleep before another does? We know that we will wake up and
continue
> > life in a fresh day. It is so with the larger separation of
"death." ]
> > 
> > I attach here an article written generally on this. 
> > 
> > 
> > THE CURE OF DISEASES
> > 
> > 
> > MORTAL ills and the needs of the stomach rank next after the
instinct of
> > self-preservation among all the subjects which engage the attention
> of the
> > race. 
> > If we do not go on living we cannot do the work we think there is to
> do; if
> > we remain hungry we will lose the power to work properly or to
> enjoy, and at
> > last come to the door of death. From bad or scanty food follows a
> train of
> > physical ills called generally disease. 
> > 
> > Disease reaches us also through too much food. So in every direction
> these
> > ills attack us; even when our feeding is correct and sufficient it
> is found
> > that we fall a prey because our Karma, settled by ourselves is some
> previous
> > life, ordains that we enter on this one handicapped by the
> hereditary taint
> > due to the wickedness or the errors of our fathers and mothers. 
> > 
> > And the records of science show that the taint in the blood or the
> lymph may
> > jump over many lives, attacking with virulence some generation
> distant very
> > far from the source. 
> > 
> > What wonder, then that the cure of disease is an all-absorbing
> subject with
> > every one! The Christian knows that it is decreed by Almighty God
> that He
> > will visit the sins of the fathers upon the children even to the
> third and
> > fourth generation, and the non-believer sees that by some power in
> nature
> > the penalty is felt even so far.
> > 
> > All of this has given to the schools of mental and so-called
> "metaphysical"
> > healing a strong pull on the fears, the feelings, the wishes, and
> the bodies
> > of those to whom they address themselves, and especially in the United
> > States. 
> > That there is more attention given to the subject in America seems
> true to
> > those who have been on the other side of the Atlantic and noticed
> how small
> > is the proportion of people there who know anything about the
> subject. But
> > in the United States in every town many can be found who know about
> these
> > schools and practice after their methods. Why it has more hold here
> can be
> > left to conjecture, as the point under consideration is why it has
> any hold
> > at all. It is something like patent medicine. 
> > 
> > Offer a cure to people for their many ills, and they will take it
> up; offer
> > it cheap, and they will use it; offer it as an easy method, and they
> will
> > rush for it under certain conditions. 
> > 
> > Metaphysical healing is easy for some because it declares, first,
> that no
> > money need be paid to doctors for medicine; second, that medical
> fluids and
> > drugs may be dispensed with; and third that it is easily learned and
> > practiced. The difficulties that arise out of the necessities of
> logic are
> > not present for those who never studied it, but are somewhat
potent with
> > those who reason correctly; - but that is not usual for the general
> run of
> > minds. 
> > 
> > They see certain effects and accept the assumed cause as the right
> one. But
> > many persons will not even investigate the system, because they
think it
> > requires them to postulate the non-existence of that which they see
> before
> > their eyes. 
> > 
> > The statements quoted from the monthly Christian Science in March
> PATH are
> > bars in the way of such minds. If they could be induced to just
try the
> > method offered for cure, belief might result, for effects indeed often
> > follow. 
> > 
> > But the popular mind is not in favor of "mind cure," and more
> prominence is
> > given in the daily papers to cases of death under it than to cures.
> And very
> > full reports always appear of a case such as one in March, where
"faith
> > curers," in order to restore life, went to praying over the dead
> body of one
> > of the members of a believing family.
> > 
> > During a recent tour over this country from the Atlantic to the
> Pacific and
> > back, I had the opportunity of meeting hundreds of disciples of these
> > schools, and found in nearly all cases that they were not addicted
> to logic
> > but calmly ignored very plain propositions, satisfied that if
cures were
> > accomplished the cause claimed must be the right one, and almost
without
> > exception they denied the existence of evil or pain or suffering. 
> > 
> > There was a concurrence of testimony from all to show that the
> dominant idea
> > in their minds was the cure of their bodily ills and the
continuance of
> > health. The accent was not on the beauty of holiness or the value to
> them
> > and the community of a right moral system and right life, but on the
> cure of
> > their diseases. 
> > 
> > So the conclusion has been forced home that all these schools exist
> because
> > people desire to be well more than they desire to be good, although
> they do
> > not object to goodness if that shall bring wholeness.
> > 
> > And, indeed, one does not have to be good to gain the benefit of the
> > teachings. It is enough to have confidence, to assert boldly that
> this does
> > not exist and that that has no power to hurt one. 
> > I do not say the teachers of the "science" agree with me herein, but
> only
> > that whether you are good or bad the results will follow the firm
> practice
> > of the method enjoined, irrespective of the ideas of the teachers.
> > 
> > For in pure mind-cure as compared with its congener "Christian
> Science," you
> > do not have to believe in Jesus and the gospels, yet the same
> results are
> > claimed, for Jesus taught that whatever you prayed for with faith,
> that you
> > should have.
> > 
> > Scientific research discloses that the bodies of our race are
> infected with
> > taints that cause nearly all of our diseases, and school after
school of
> > medicine has tried and still tries to find the remedy that will
> dislodge the
> > foulness in the blood. 
> > 
> > This is scientific, since it seeks the real physical cause;
metaphysical
> > healing says it cures, but cannot prove that the cause is destroyed
> and not
> > merely palliated. 
> > 
> > That there is some room for doubt history shows us, for none will
> deny that
> > many pure thinking and acting pair have brought forth children who
> displayed
> > some taint derived from a distant ancestor. Evidently their pure
> individual
> > thoughts had no power over the great universal development of the
matter
> > used by those human bodies.
> > 
> > Turning now to medicine we find the Italian Count Mattei
promulgating a
> > system of cure by the homeopathic use of subtle vegetable essences
> which may
> > well give pause to those who would make universal the curing by
faith or
> > mind alone. Some of his liquids will instantly stop a violent pain,
> restore
> > sight, give back hearing, and dissipate abnormal growths. His
> globules will
> > make a drunken man sober, and, given to the nurse who suckles a
> babe, will
> > cure the child who takes the milk. The drunkard and the child do not
> think
> > about or have faith in the remedies, yet they cure. Is it not
better to
> > restore health by physical means and leave the high teachings of the
> > healers, all taken from well know sources, for the benefit of our
moral
> > nature? 
> > 
> > And if Christian healers read these lines, should they not
remember that
> > when the prophet restored the widow's son he used physical means -
> his own
> > magnetism applied simultaneously to every member of the child's
> body, and
> > Jesus, when the woman who touched his garment was cured, lost a
> portion of
> > his vitality - not his thoughts - for he said "virtue" had gone
out from
> > him? 
> > The Apostle also gave directions that if any were sick the others
should
> > assemble about the bed and anoint with oil, laying on their hands
> meanwhile:
> > simply physical therapeutics following a long line of ancient
precedent
> > dating back to Noah. 
> > 
> > Moses taught how to cure diseases and to disinfect places where
> contagion
> > lurked. It was not by using the high power of thought, but by
processes
> > deemed by him to be effectual, such as sprinkling blood of animals
> > slaughtered in peculiar circumstances. 
> > 
> > Without declaring for or against his methods, it is very certain
that he
> > supposed by these means subtle forces of a physical nature would be
> > liberated and brought to bear on the case in hand.
> > 
> > The mass of testimony through the ages is against healing physical
> ills by
> > the use of the higher forces in nature, and the reason, once well
> known but
> > later on forgotten, is the one given in the article of January,
> 1892, - that
> > diseases are gross manifestations showing themselves on their way
> out of the
> > nature so that one may be purified. 
> > 
> > To arrest them though thought ignorantly directed is to throw them
> back into
> > their cause and replant them in their mental plane.
> > 
> > This is the true ground of our objection to metaphysical healing
> practices,
> > which we distinguish from the assumptions and so-called philosophy
> on which
> > those methods are claimed to stand. For we distinctly urge that the
> effects
> > are not brought by any philosophical system whatever, but by the
> practical
> > though ignorant use of psycho-physiological processes.
> > 
> > William Q. Judge Path, September, 1892
> > 
> > 
> > ========================================
> > 
> > I hope this may be of some help,
> > 
> > 
> > Best wishes,
> > 
> > Dallas
> > 
> > 
> > ===================
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Vera Santos 
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 3:30 PM
> > To: 
> > Subject: [bn-study] help needed
> > 
> > Your friend asked: about blood transfusion and organ donations -
does
> > THEOSOPHY offer anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
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