Theos-Talk Archives (December 2004 Message tt00031)

Dec 5 2004


Question:

I am getting confused.

I was told 'THAT' was the knowable

'NOT THAT' was the unknowable

Does SAT refer to "THAT" (knowable) or to 'NOT THAT" (the unknowable)?

Even the Masters do not understand 'NOT THAT'


DTB	Do you have an exact statement from Them on this?	


===================================


ABSOLUTE - UNIVERSAL SPIRIT ?


HPB SAID:

Fundamentally there is ONE BEING. [SAT or THAT]

This Being has two aspects, positive and negative. [Hence the MONADS, in
Sanskrit philosophy we have Sat and A-Sat. 

The positive is Spirit, or CONSCIOUSNESS. The negative is SUBSTANCE, [and it
is] the subject of consciousness. 

This Being is the Absolute [THAT] in its primary manifestation. Being
ABSOLUTE there is nothing outside it. It is All-Being. It is indivisible,
else it would not be absolute. 

If a portion could be separated, that remaining could not be absolute,
because there would at once arise the question of COMPARISON between it and
the separated part. Comparison is incompatible with any idea of
absoluteness. Therefore it is clear that this fundamental One Existence, or
Absolute Being must be the Reality in every form there is. ...

(a)	The FUNDAMENTAL UNITY OF ALL EXISTENCE. This unity is a thing
altogether different from the common notion of unity -- as when we say that
a nation or an army is united; or that this planet is united to that by
lines of magnetic force or the like. The teaching is not that. It is that
existence is ONE THING, not any collection of things linked together. 


"Theosophy," she said, "is for those who can think, or for those who can
drive themselves to think, not mental sluggards." H.P.B. has grown very mild
of late. "Dumskulls!" used to be her name for the average student. 
 
4 Fundamental Ideas Given by HPB 

(a)The Atom, the Man, the God (she says) are each separately, as well as all
collectively, Absolute Being in their last analysis, that is their REAL
INDIVIDUALITY. 

It is this idea which must be held always in the background of the mind to
form the basis for every conception that arises from study of the S.D. The
moment one lets it go (and it is most easy to do so when engaged in any of
the many intricate aspects of the Esoteric Philosophy) the idea of
SEPARATION supervenes, and the study loses its value.   

(b) The second idea to hold fast to is that THERE IS NO DEAD MATTER.

Every last atom is alive. It cannot be otherwise since every atom is itself
fundamentally Absolute Being. 

Therefore there is no such thing as "spaces" of Ether, or Akasha, or call it
what you like, in which "angels and elementals" disport themselves like
trout in water. That's the common idea. The true idea shows every atom of
substance no matter of what plane to be in itself a LIFE. 

(c) The third basic idea to be held is that Man is the MICROCOSM. 

As he is so, then all the Hierarchies of the Heavens exist within him. But
in truth there is neither Macrocosm nor Microcosm but ONE EXISTENCE. Great
and small are such only as viewed by a limited consciousness [which makes
such distinctions]. 

(d) Fourth and last basic idea to be held is that expressed in the Great
Hermetic Axiom. 

"As is the Inner, so is the Outer; as is the Great so is the Small; as it is
above, so it is below; there is but One Life and Law; and he that worketh it
is ONE. Nothing is Inner, nothing is Outer; nothing is Great, nothing is
Small; nothing is High, nothing is Low, in the Divine Economy. "

It really sums up and synthesizes all the others. 

No matter what one takes as study in the S.D. one must correlate it with
those basic ideas." P. G . Bowen

============================

2

Another view:

Why not use the idea of UNIVERSAL SPIRIT for that which in religions has
been designated "God?"  

It is UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD {or LOVE} as a living fact. It has always been
there and will continue to be there, and we will always be in and with IT.
Its beginnings (and ours) are of the same duration, and that cannot be
measured in terms of whet we call time, distance or motion. Call it a
sublime IDEA. And its manifestations (including ourselves) are immortals,
deathless, always the all-pervading, correlative MONADS. They fill the
infinitudes of SPACE. 

They are the Eternal Pilgrims -- our MINDS and our SPIRIT.

Some of these concepts can appeal to us and we can then use them as avenues
of thought to universalize our concept of IT, and those will cause us to
see it first in ourselves as our dearest friend, and closest tutor, and
then, if we reach out to the radiance in everything, we will sense it in a
daisy, the Sun, our friends and family, in a grain of sand or a cloud, in
roaring fire or tinkling brook - wherever we may project or stretch our
minds-there LIFE IS.

Than if we see "God" everywhere, who are we to change or destroy the natural
system of either that Presence or its Manifestation? 

Are we to assume with incomplete knowledge, the position of tyrants or
oppressors ? If we think God is all-knowledge, then we can never be far
from IT. It is the immortal HIGHER SELF [call it the MASTER] within each of
us. Nor can we 'escape' from the consequences of our choices.

There is an old hymn or verse that says this:  
  
"Never was I not, never was I not."
Never will I cease to be.
Never the Spirit was IT not,
Beginnings and ends are but dreams."


=========================================


Can we emerge from Materialism?

How often in framing our concepts do we rely on our education, or on the
religious concepts we were taught as children? Almost all the time.  

At what point do we begin to question some of the basics that were given to
us as facts and truths, and which we later find to be only hypotheses?  

What is an atom, what makes it move?  

What is electricity, magnetism, light? What causes these, and why are they
always described in terms of their effects and not in terms of their actual
causes ?

True, that for our present Western frame of mind (as well as often in the
East) the term "God" is employed to designate a Power which we hope we may
turn to our help by some method of worship or propitiation.  

How can we imagine that this might be done solely for us, when we also know
in our hearts that its 'love' includes our whole world with all its
differences ?  

How can we reasonably imagine a whole Galaxy, that is still mainly
unexplored and unknown to us, treat us in a private, or in some special way
? How can we delve into our own psyche and mind - still largely, not in our
control? What have we ? Blind alleys, or horizons of hope and encouragement
to widen our range of understanding? Then comes the death of the physical
body. Is all lost, or is there a continuance? What is the purpose of so
complex, and rather vague, situation?

What evidence can we assemble to prove or disprove the Theosophical
propositions about the nature of the Universe and our role as humans in it?
Perhaps it is well that there is no finality and that our curiosity is left
with an open field in which to grow, to ever grow?

=====================================

HPB on STUDYING the S.D. (BOWEN)

			
Since most of the quotes that we will discuss come from SD, I hope the
following extracts from Robert Bowen's notes of personal teachings given by
H.P.B. to private pupils during the years 1888 to 1891 on how to study SD
may be of some help.

"At last we have managed to get H.P.B. to put us right on the matter of the
study of the S.D. Let me get it down while it is all fresh in mind.
Reading the S.D. page by page as one reads any other book (she says) will
only end us in confusion. The first thing to do, even if it takes years, is
to get some grasp of the "Three Fundamental Principles" given in the Proem.
Follow that up by study of the Recapitulation -- the numbered items in the
Summing Up to Vol. I. (Part 1.). Then take the Preliminary Notes (Vol. II.)
and the Conclusion (Vol. II.)...... 

She talked a good deal about the "Fundamental Principle." She says: If one
imagines that one is going to get a satisfactory picture of the constitution
of the Universe from the S.D. one will get only confusion from its study. It
is not meant to give any such final verdict on existence, but to LEAD
TOWARDS THE TRUTH. She repeated this latter expression many times.  

It is worse than useless going to those whom we imagine to be advanced
students (she said) and asking them to give us an "interpretation" of the
S.D. They cannot do it. If they try, all they give are cut and dried
exoteric renderings which do not remotely resemble the Truth. To accept such
interpretation means anchoring ourselves to fixed ideas, whereas Truth lies
beyond any ideas we can formulate or express.

Exoteric interpretations are all very well, and she does not condemn them so
long as they are taken as pointers for beginners, and are not accepted by
them as anything more. Many persons who are in, or who will in the future be
in the T.S. are of course potentially incapable of any advance beyond the
range of a common exoteric conception. But there are, and will be others,
and for them she sets out the following and true way of approach to the S.D.


Come to the S.D. (she says) without any hope of getting the final Truth of
existence from it, or with any idea other than seeing how far it may lead
TOWARDS the Truth. See in study a means of exercising and developing the
mind never touched by other studies. Observe the following rules: 

1. No matter what one may study in the S.D. let the mind hold fast, as the
basis of its ideation to the following ideas 

=========================

4.

Why should Manifestation Occur ?


Why does SPIRIT undergo the evolutionary process.  

Basically it would seem so that: "IT should know Itself." This implies a
vast all-encompassing love and understanding of the rights and privileges of
all beings. They are all eternal MONADS. Each is at its own proper
designated stage of progress. They are a band of brothers.

Logic:  

SPIRIT by itself is UNCONSCIOUS - UNIVERSAL - without contrast.  

Evolutionary law (KARMA) provides periodically the contrast of MATTER in an
evolutionary Manvantara such as we are now involved in. [ Karma: as the
endless "pulsing" of unconscious Life, which is perceived by "the opened eye
of the Dangma" (the perception of the WISE)--SECRET DOCTRINE I 27 Verse
8.]

SPIRIT emanates aspects of itself - "Rays or Sparks" - which appear
simultaneously with "MATTER" of a refined and "primordial type"
[Mulaprakriti or Mahabuddhi].  

Also, simultaneously arises the POWER TO PERCEIVE, or UNIVERSAL MIND-MAHAT.
[ Primordial matter is also named "Mulaprakriti" and "Mahabuddhi." ]

The "Rays" invested with "matter" or MAHA-BUDDHI (Wisdom derived from
experience), pass as individual MONADS [Atma-Buddhi-Manas], through all the
planes and spheres of manifestation and eventually find themselves as
individual Men-Minds on this, the grossest, most material of the planes
[like our Earth experience at present]. The SD describes this process
starting SD Vol. I, p. 152. The OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY covers this in brief in
Chapters 2, 3, 4, and 14, 15, if a synopsis is desired.

If one is asking for a FIRST CAUSE, [SD I 14-5 214 342 426] you will be
disappointed because there is none of a "material" kind. 

In terms of metaphysics, HPB hints in the SD that it is the CAUSELESS CAUSE,
[SD I 9-10 14-5 55 89 273 280 II 589 ] and it is indescribable in our
material, physical terms and thoughts.

What then remains for us to un-puzzle our minds? Only the fact that we are
here. The fact that we are now, at this very moment, questioning is highly
significant.  

In THE SECRET DOCTRINE we are given one of the most comprehensive "keys" to
the great seven-fold puzzle. This 7-fold mystery stretches between the polar
opposites of Spirit and Matter, and employs the Mind which is mid-way
between and independent of them, to note and record all their interactions
in terms of time, space and motion. In effect we are told: "Man know
thyself." [see S D I 157-8; II 596 ]

Since we are also 7-fold, each one of our principles, when ultimately
refined and brought under control opens the corresponding "lock" of great
nature. Man is the "Microcosm" of the "Macrocosm" and contains in himself,
in miniature, every power and force that the Universe has. 

He has to understand these, where they come from and how they are used, but,
the power to employ the secret laws and powers of nature are not entrusted
to him by the WISE who hold the final "secrets," until he has become
completely HARMLESS to himself and to Nature around him.  

This is Universal Love for all beings.

The practice of "brotherhood" is the opening aspect of the discipline that
leads to individual "success" and to ultimate Wisdom (or the practice of
benevolence as a force that is employed only for the good of others).

By the fact that in any one evolutionary period a mass of minds
independently and cooperatively achieve the highest illumination into the
nature of SPIRIT and the UNIVERSE, to that extent SPIRIT GETS TO KNOW
ITSELF.  

It becomes progressively SELF-CONSCIOUS. 

Thus the human stage is an essential component of the evolutionary process
and those Men-minds that become successful are entrusted with the guidance
of various aspects of future evolutionary schemes and the assisting of still
more "minds" to become universally enlightened. Spirit may be said to get
to "know itself" by the success of Minds who are wisely benevolent.

As the process is continuous and eternal, evolution and progress towards
spirituality (with the memory of every Egoic, individual experience in all
departments of Nature stored in Akasa - the BUDDHI aspect of NATURE) the
SPIRITUAL PERSON, that we are fundamentally, becomes ONE WITH THE UNIVERSAL
SPIRIT. It does not, even then, loose its identity.

But this merging does not annihilate or disintegrate the Individual SELF,
for that continues as a conscious unit. One may say it chooses a vast an
impersonal love, a compassion absolute, and then proceeds on a self-assumed
mission of assistance, compassion and mercy described in the VOICE OF THE
SILENCE in the last pages of the book (pp. 76-79 and the all-important
footnotes there). We as humans are half-way through this vast process and
work.


HPB in her article ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISISHTADWAITA says:

"I maintain as an occultist, on the authority of the Secret
Doctrine Parabrahm, man's spirit which not individual per se, yet
preserves its distinct individuality in Paranirvana owing to the
accumulation in it of the aggregates, or "skandhas" that have
survived after each death, from the highest faculties of the
Manas. The most spiritual--i.e., the highest and divinest
aspirations of every personality follow "Buddhi" and the Seventh
Principle into Devachan ("Swarga") after the death of each
personality along the line of rebirths, and become part and
parcel of the "Monad." [HPB Articles III, p. 265.]

=====================================

5.

If the "ALL" is so grand and all knowing (omnipotent and omnipresent,
etc...), then why does it need to form itself into a dense, fleshly
creature like ourselves to evolve? 

It seems to me that to do so would be "un-evolving" itself (if such a word
exists). Now I know that someone here is going to say, "Well, by becoming
human, the "All" can experience many things on this plane, thus, adding to
Its bank of knowledge."  

BUT, (I say),"Why??? If It is already all- knowing???"

-----------------

What a grand question. In fact, the greatest philosophers of all history
have asked over and over the question as to why "God" joined soul and body
together - which is a variant of your question, isn't it?

HPB has written that the mystery of the "solar logos" is the greatest
mystery and the most precious in all of occultism. But if the UNIVERSE is
the ONE ALL-INCLUSIVE SUN," [the Paramatma], then interiorly, we have each,
our own Individual Sun: the ATMA. We have to set it free -- and only true
"love" can do that. 

Love may be seen t be at the root of all virtues -- as ideals or as
practice. 

Apparently our solar system, and the planets therein, have experienced great
moral and spiritual failures in the vast past. It was not only a few
millions of years back, in Atlantis that men turned to wickedness, sorcery
and greed, black magic and so on, but in previous solar systems, resulting
in great perverted, selfish and decaying karmic residual substances in the
cosmos with human "prisoners" within them, comatose or in pain.

Then along comes the living and loving example of an actual living Man, who
acts as the "heart of the Sun," who, as Christ, and other Saviours did, make
the stupendous sacrifice of selfish life, to give the hope of a spiritual
essential life, and the example and opportunity for humanity to see it can
work its way back home to "Paradise" again. [see S D I 207-210 ]

So if you look at the billions of billions of billions of suns and the
equivalent numbers of humanities, both evolved and perfected and unevolved
in the vast kosmic space we see each night in the skies, it is a universal
process and not only in this, a small, single portion, our own solar system
that mistakenly has objectivized its "God" and demanded that it incarnate
through this, which we falsely assume is the only human kingdom. 

Mankind is the stage and plane of all redemption, the Great Savior that
resides in each of us has to be given a channel through our personalities,
to awaken to his true ancient agenda. 

============================

These are a few ideas to consider,

Best wishes,


Dallas

=========================
 
-----Original Message-----
From: cassilva48
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 8:33 PM
To: 
Subject: [bn-study] THAT

Dear Friends

I am getting confused.

I was told 'THAT' was the knowable

'NOT THAT' was the unknowable

Does SAT refer to "THAT" (knowable) or to 'NOT THAT" (the unknowable)?

Even the Masters do not understand 'NOT THAT'

CASS