Theos-Talk Archives (November 2004 Message tt00299)

Nov 23 2004

RE: Cloning

Dear Friend:

You are right that story is not directly related to "cloning."  

So far as I am able to grasp, cloning as our science has practised it,
relates to a physical form alone. No human intelligence has so far been
evoked from any such form. [Did you look up Homunculi ?]

One may imagine a human form being "cloned" but not the HUMAN SPIRITUAL
SELF. Physical processes do not clone that immortal MONAD the
ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS.  

Even physical cloning has not been perfected and such defects as are noted
show that a knowledge of (at least) the "astral" and the "pranic" planes and
principles is needed. Science is yet to research these. 

I sent you the story so you would see that in occultism there are reasons
and occasions whereby a totally different process could be used -- the
SPIRIT IN MAN -- would not be destroyed, or "created," but merely
transferred when Karma permits and there is an occult need for such a thing.


We are given here a glimpse into the far-reaching laws of Nature and some of
the reasons for their use. This case is far more serious than cloning for
amusement, as a "dare," or for selfish effort of some scientists who cannot
see beyond the physical plane. 

As you say, the Atlanteans are reputed to have used a process similar to
cloning.--if used for selfish and evil purposes it would be "black magic." 


Here is another analog: [I U II 596 - 603]


" An adept can not only project and make visible a hand, a foot, or any
other portion of his body, but the whole of it. We have seen one do this, in
full day, while his hands and feet were being held by a skeptical friend
whom he wished to surprise.* Little by little the whole astral body oozed
out like a vapory cloud, until before us stood two forms, of which the
second was an exact duplicate of the first, only slightly more shadowy. 

The medium need not exercise any will-power. It suffices that she or he
shall know what is expected by the investigators. The medium's "spiritual"
entity, when not obsessed by other spirits, will act outside the will or
consciousness of the physical being, as surely as it acts when within the
body during a fit of somnambulism. Its perceptions, external and internal,
will be acuter and far more developed, precisely as they are in the
sleep-walker. And this is why "the materialized form sometimes knows more
than the medium," † for the intellectual perception of the astral entity is
proportionately as much higher than the corporeal intelligence of the medium
in its normal state, as the spirit entity is finer than itself. Generally
the medium will be found cold, the pulse will have visibly changed, and a
state of nervous prostration succeeds the phenomena, bunglingly and without
discrimination attributed to disembodied spirits; whereas, but one-third of
them may be produced by the latter, another third by elementals, and the
rest by the astral double of the medium himself. 

——————FOOTNOTE---------------------

The Boulogne (France) correspondent of an English journal says that he
knows of a gentleman who has had an arm amputated at the shoulder, "who is
certain that he has a spiritual arm, which he sees and actually feels with
his other hand. He can touch anything, and even pull up things with the
spiritual or phantom arm and hand." The party knows nothing of spiritualism.
We give this as we get it, without verification, but it merely corroborates
what we have seen in the case of an Eastern adept. This eminent scholar and
practical kabalist can at will project his astral arm, and with the hand
take up, move, and carry objects, even at a considerable distance from where
he may be sitting or standing. We have often seen him thus minister to the
wants of a favorite elephant. 

† Answer to a question at "The National Association of Spiritualists," May
14th, 1877. 
-----------------------------------------------------


But, while it is our firm belief that most of the physical
manifestations, i.e., those which neither need nor show intelligence nor
great discrimination, are produced mechanically by the scin-lecca (double)
of the medium, as a person in sound sleep will when apparently awake do
things of which he will retain no remembrance. The purely subjective
phenomena are but in a very small proportion of cases due to the action of
the personal astral body. They are mostly, and according to the moral,
intellectual, and physical purity of the medium, the work of either the
elementary, or sometimes very pure human spirits. Elementals have naught to
do with subjective manifestations. In rare cases it is the divine spirit of
the medium himself that guides and produces them. 

As Baboo Peary Chand Mittra says, in a letter * to the President of the
National Association of Spiritualists, Mr. Alexander Calder, † "a spirit is
an essence or power, and has no form. . . . The very idea of form implies
'materialism.' The spirits [astral souls, we should say] . . . can assume
forms for a time, but form is not their permanent state. The more material
is our soul, the more material is our conception of spirits." 

Epimenides, the Orphikos, was renowned for his "sacred and marvellous
nature," and for the faculty his soul possessed of quitting its body " as
long and as often as it pleased." The ancient philosophers who have
testified to this ability may be reckoned by dozens. 

Apollonius left his body at a moment's notice, but it must be remembered
Apollonius was an adept — a "magician." [See I U I 437-8] Had he been
simply a medium, he could not have performed such feats at will. Empedocles
of Agrigentum, the Pythagorean thaumaturgist, required no conditions to
arrest a waterspout which had broken over the city. 

Neither did he need any to recall a woman to life, as he did. Apollonius
used no darkened room in which to perform his ζthrobatic feats. Vanishing
suddenly in the air before the eyes of Domitian and a whole crowd of
witnesses (many thousands), he appeared an hour after in the grotto of
Puteoli. But investigation would have shown that his physical body having
become invisible by the concentration of akasa about it, he could walk off
unperceived to some secure retreat in the neighborhood, and an hour after
his astral form appear at Puteoli to his friends, and seem to be the man
himself.
 
No more did Simon Magus wait to be entranced to fly off in the air
before the apostles and crowds of witnesses. "It requires no conjuration and
ceremonies; circle-making and incensing are mere nonsense and juggling,"
says Paracelsus. The human spirit "is so great a thing that no man can
express it; as God Himself is eternal and unchangeable, so also 
—————————————————————————

* "A Buddhist's Opinions of the Spiritual States." 

† See the "London Spiritualist," May 25, 1877, p. 246. 

-----------------------------------------------------

is the mind of man. If we rightly understood its powers, nothing would be
impossible to us on earth. The imagination is strengthened and developed
through faith in our will. Faith must confirm the imagination, for faith
establishes the will." 

A singular account of the personal interview of an English ambassador
in 1783, with a reincarnated Buddha — barely mentioned in volume i. — an
infant of eighteen months old at that time, is given in the Asiatic Journal
from the narrative of an eye-witness himself, Mr. Turner, the author of The
Embassy to Thibet. The cautious phraseology of a skeptic dreading public
ridicule ill conceals the amazement of the witness, who, at the same time,
desires to give facts as truthfully as possible. The infant lama received
the ambassador and his suite with a dignity and decorum so natural and
unconstrained that they remained in a perfect maze of wonder. The behavior
of this infant, says the author, was that of an old philosopher, grave and
sedate and exceedingly courteous. He contrived to make the young pontiff
understand the inconsolable grief into which the Governor-General of
Galagata (Calcutta) the City of Palaces and the people of India were plunged
when he died, and the general rapture when they found that he had
resurrected in a young and fresh body again; at which compliment the young
lama regarded him and his suite with looks of singular complacency, and
courteously treated them to confectionery from a golden cup. 

"The ambassador continued to express the Governor-General's hope that the
lama might long continue to illumine the world with his presence, and that
the friendship which had heretofore subsisted between them might be yet more
strongly cemented, for the benefit and advantage of the intelligent votaries
of the lama . . . all which made the little creature look steadfastly at the
speaker, and graciously bow and nod — and bow and nod — as if he understood
and approved of every word that was uttered." * 

As if he understood! If the infant behaved in the most natural and
dignified way during the reception, and "when their cups were empty of tea
became uneasy and throwing back his head and contracting the skin of his
brow, continued making a noise till they were filled again," why could he
not understand as well what was said to him? 

Years ago, a small party of travellers were painfully journeying from
Kashmir to Leh, a city of Ladahk (Central Thibet). Among our guides we had a
Tartar Shaman, a very mysterious personage, who spoke Russian a little and
English not at all, and yet who managed, nevertheless, to converse with us,
and proved of great service. Having learned that some of our party were
Russians, he had imagined that our protection  

——————————————————————————

* See Coleman's "Hindu Mythology." 

------------------------------------------------------

. 

was all-powerful, and might enable him to safely find his way back to his
Siberian home, from which, for reasons unknown, some twenty years before, he
had fled, as he told us, via Kiachta and the great Gobi Desert, to the land
of the Tcha-gars.* With such an interested object in view, we believed
ourselves safe under his guard. 

To explain the situation briefly: Our companions had formed the unwise plan
of penetrating into Thibet under various disguises, none of them speaking
the language, although one, a Mr. K——, had picked up some Kasan Tartar,and
thought he did. As we mention this only incidentally, we may as well say at
once that two of them, the brothers N——, were very politely brought back to
the frontier before they had walked sixteen miles into the weird land of
Eastern Bod; and Mr. K——, an ex-Lutheran minister, could not even attempt to
leave his miserable village near Leh, as from the first days he found
himself prostrated with fever, and had to return to Lahore via Kashmere. But
one sight seen by him was as good as if he had witnessed the reincarnation
of Buddha itself. Having heard of this "miracle" from some old Russian
missionary in whom he thought he could have more faith than in Abbe Huc, it
had been for years his desire to expose the "great heathen" jugglery, as he
expressed it. K—— was a positivist, and rather prided himself on this
anti-philosophical neologism. But his positivism was doomed to receive a
death-blow. 

About four days journey from Islamabad, at an insignificant mud
village, whose only redeeming feature was its magnificent lake, we stopped
for a few days' rest. Our companions had temporarily separated from us, and
the village was to be our place of meeting. 

It was there that we were apprised by our Shaman that a large party of
Lamaic "Saints," on pilgrimage to various shrines, had taken up their abode
in an old cave-temple and established a temporary Vihara therein. He added
that, as the "Three Honorable Ones" † were said to travel along with them,
the holy Bikshu (monks) were capable of producing the greatest miracles. Mr.
K——-, fired with the prospect of exposing this humbug of the ages, proceeded
at once to pay them a visit, and from that moment the most friendly
relations were established between the two camps. 

The Vihar was in a secluded and most romantic spot secured against all
intrusion. Despite the effusive attentions, presents, and protestations of
Mr. K——, the Chief, who was Pase-Budhu (an ascetic of great 

—————————————————————————————

* Russian subjects are not allowed to cross the Tartar territory, neither
the subjects of the Emperor of China to go to the Russian factories. 

† These are the representatives of the Buddhist Trinity, Buddha, Dharma, and
Sangha, or Fo, Fa, and Sengh, as they are called in Thibet. 
---------------------------------------------------------

sanctity), declined to exhibit the phenomenon of the "incarnation" until a
certain talisman in possession of the writer was exhibited.* 

Upon seeing this, however, preparations were at once made, and an infant of
three or four months was procured from its mother, a poor woman of the
neighborhood. An oath was first of all exacted of Mr. K——, that he would not
divulge what he might see or hear, for the space of seven years. The
talisman is a simple agate or carnelian known among the Thibetans and others
as A-yu, and naturally possessed, or had been endowed with very mysterious
properties. It has a triangle engraved upon it, within which are contained a
few mystical words.† 

Several days passed before everything was ready; nothing of a
mysterious character occurring, meanwhile, except that, at the bidding of a
Bikshu, ghastly faces were made to peep at us out of the glassy bosom of the
lake, as we sat at the door of the Vihar, upon its bank. One of these was
the countenance of Mr. K——'s sister, whom he had left well and happy at
home, but who, as we subsequently learned, had died some 

———————————————————————————

* A Bikshu is not allowed to accept anything directly even from laymen of
his own people, least of all from a foreigner. The slightest contact with
the body and even dress of a person not belonging to their special community
is carefully avoided. Thus even the offerings brought by us and which
comprised pieces of red and yellow pou-lou, a sort of woollen fabric the
lamas generally wear, had to pass through strange ceremonies. They are
forbidden, 

1, to ask or beg for anything — even were they starving — having to wait
until it is voluntarily offered; 

2, to touch either gold or silver with their hands; 

3, to eat a morsel of food, even when presented, unless the donor distinctly
says to the disciple, "This is for your master to eat." Thereupon, the
disciple turning to the pazen has to offer the food in his turn, and when he
has said, "Master, this is allowed; take and eat," then only can the lama
take it with the right hand, and partake of it. 

All our offerings had to pass through such purifications. When the silver
pieces, and a few handfuls of annas (a coin equal to four cents) were at
different occasions offered to the community, a disciple first wrapped his
hand in a yellow handkerchief, and receiving it on his palm, conveyed the
sum immediately into the Badir, called elsewhere Sabait, a sacred basin,
generally wooden, kept for offerings.
 
† These stones are highly venerated among Lamaists and Buddhists; the throne
and sceptre of Buddha are ornamented with them, and the Taley Lama wears one
on the fourth finger of the right hand. They are found in the Altai
Mountains, and near the river Yarkuh. Our talisman was a gift from the
venerable high-priest, a Heiloung, of a Kalmuck tribe. Though treated as
apostates from their primitive Lamaism, these nomads maintain friendly
intercourse with their brother Kalmucks, the Chokhots of Eastern Thibet and
Kokonor, but even with the Lamaists of Lha-Ssa. The ecclesiastical
authorities however, will have no relations with them. We have had abundant
opportunities to become acquainted with this interesting people of the
Astrakhan Steppes, having lived in their Kibitkas in our early years, and
partaken of the lavish hospitality of the Prince Tumene, their late chief,
and his Princess. In their religious ceremonies, the Kalmucks employ
trumpets made from the thigh and arm bones of deceased rulers and high
priests. 
----------------------------------------------------------

time before he had set out on the present journey. The sight affected him at
first, but he called his skepticism to his aid, and quieted himself with
theories of cloud-shadows, reflections of tree-branches, etc., such as
people of his kind fall back upon. 

On the appointed afternoon, the baby being brought to the Vihara, was
left in the vestibule or reception-room, as K—— could go no further into the
temporary sanctuary. 

The child was then placed on a bit of carpet in the middle of the floor, and
every one not belonging to the party being sent away, two "mendicants" were
placed at the entrance to keep out intruders. Then all the lamas seated
themselves on the floor, with their backs against the granite walls, so that
each was separated from the child by a space, at least, of ten feet. 

The chief, having had a square piece of leather spread for him by the
desservant, seated himself at the farthest corner. 

Alone, Mr. K—— placed himself close by the infant, and watched every
movement with intense interest. The only condition exacted of us was that we
should preserve a strict silence, and patiently await further developments.
A bright sunlight streamed through the open door. 

Gradually the "Superior" fell into what seemed a state of profound
meditation, while the others, after a sotto voce short invocation, became
suddenly silent, and looked as if they had been completely petrified. It was
oppressively still, and the crowing of the child was the only sound to be
heard. 

After we had sat there a few moments, the movements of the infant's limbs
suddenly ceased, and his body appeared to become rigid. K—— watched intently
every motion, and both of us, by a rapid glance, became satisfied that all
present were sitting motionless. 

The superior, with his gaze fixed upon the ground, did not even look at the
infant; but, pale and motionless, he seemed rather like a bronze statue of a
Talapoin in meditation than a living being. 

Suddenly, to our great consternation, we saw the child, not raise itself,
but, as it were, violently jerked into a sitting posture! A few more jerks,
and then, like an automaton set in motion by concealed wires, the four
months' baby stood upon his feet! 

Fancy our consternation, and, in Mr. K——'s case, horror. Not a hand hadbeen
outstretched, not a motion made, nor a word spoken; and yet, here was a
baby-in-arms standing erect and firm as a man! 

The rest of the story we will quote from a copy of notes written on
this subject by Mr. K——, the same evening, and given to us, in case it
should not reach its place of destination, or the writer fail to see
anything more. 

"After a minute or two of hesitation," writes K——, "the baby turned his
head and looked at me with an expression of intelligence that was simply
awful! It sent a chill through me. I pinched my hands and bit my lips till
the blood almost came, to make sure that I did not dream. But this was only
the beginning. 

The miraculous creature, making, as I fancied, two steps toward me, resumed
his sitting posture, and, without removing his eyes from mine, repeated,
sentence by sentence, in what I supposed to be Thibetan language, the very
words, which I had been told in advance, are commonly spoken at the
incarnations of Buddha, beginning with 'I am Buddha; I am the old Lama; I am
his spirit in a new body,' etc. I felt a real terror; my hair rose upon my
head, and my blood ran cold. For my life I could not have spoken a word. 

There was no trickery here, no ventriloquism. The infant lips moved, and the
eyes seemed to search my very soul with an expression that made me think it
was the face of the Superior himself, his eyes, his very look that I was
gazing upon. It was as if his spirit had entered the little body, and was
looking at me through the transparent mask of the baby's face. I felt my
brain growing dizzy. 

The infant reached toward me, and laid his little hand upon mine. I started
as if I had been touched by a hot coal; and, unable to bear the scene any
longer, covered my face with my hands. It was but for an instant; but when I
removed them, the little actor had become a crowing baby again, and a moment
after, lying upon his back, set up a fretful cry. The superior had resumed
his normal condition, and conversation ensued. 

"It was only after a series of similar experiments, extending over ten
days, that I realized the fact that I had seen the incredible, astounding
phenomenon described by certain travellers, but always by me denounced as an
imposture. 

Among a multitude of questions unanswered, despite my cross-examination, the
Superior let drop one piece of information, which must be regarded as highly
significant. 'What would have happened,' I inquired, through the shaman,
'if, while the infant was speaking, in a moment of insane fright, at the
thought of its being the "Devil," I had killed it?' He replied that, if the
blow had not been instantly fatal, the child alone would have been killed.'
'But,' I continued, 'suppose that it had been as swift as a
lightning-flash?' 'In such case,' was the answer, 'you would have killed me
also.' " 
I U II 596-603

==============================

Best washes,

Dallas

=================================
 

-----Original Message-----
From: cassilva48
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 12:55 AM
To: 
Subject: [bn-study] RE: Cloning

Dear Dallas

I enjoyed reading your story, but cannot relate it to Cloning. I have
read and am familiar with (on an intellectual level) the Lord Maitreya
using the body of Jesus to take human form and that Krishnamurti had the
opportunity to do likewise. But chose not to.

Your story also raises the issue of Karma in relation to the parents of
the young boy whose body is used for the prince while one is sleeping and
the other is awake. When in the body of the young growing boy, karmic
links are being made in that environment, and it almost seems as though
the parents do not really have the son, they think they have. They have
the son's body, but his soul has long gone.

Is cloning what the Atlanteans did, is this black magic?

Cass