Theos-Talk Archives (November 2004 Message tt00144)

Dear M,


I am not sure that I understand what you are saying.

I ask :

1
If a Theosophical Organization recommends using the original texts whereby
THEOSOPHY was promulgated ( by HPB and WQJ, let us say ) How can they lead
seekers and inquirers astray as to what THEOSOPHY is? 

Every individual, member or non-member, has always the freedom to leave any
organization and seek elsewhere for "truth." That is a fundamental right
everyone has. In finality, everyone binds or limits themselves. Everyone
frees themselves.

2
If such inquirers have little or no knowledge of what THEOSOPHY is, then
what basis have they (or anyone) for making any evaluation?

3
Since THEOSOPHY is said to be "eternal truth" by HPB, and if it can be found
in the SECRET DOCTRINE, then what are you asking? Are you asking for some
sure method of testing it? If so, what would you choose?

4
Are you asking if there are changes and improvements to the basics, that is
since ISIS UNVEILED and the SECRET DOCTRINE were published? How can anyone
determine this? 

Yes, I agree some of the language has changed and educational standards have
been lowered generally. But no one is compelled to accept such limits.  

For example: Are we to abandon Shakespeare, Milton, Chaucer, Plato,
Tennyson, Emerson, Longfellow, Sir Edwin Arnold, Descartes, Byron,
Lavoisier, Bacon, Goethe, Laplace, Pythagoras, Hermes, Buddha, Lao Tse,
Confucius, Krishna, Kapila, Shankaracharya, etc... and a thousand other
great and venerable writers, because we (as the average man and woman of
today) don't exactly use their language now? 

5
There is no question that as time passes, students do their own research and
test and work with both the Original writings and new ideas. They may and
do add to the record.  

6
The study of Nature demonstrates that IT underlies all things-- it has
established the rules and processes of Life, and it supports us all.  

What else do you have in mind?

7
How are those student's additions, writings and views to be considered? I
would say they ought to be checked with the ORIGINALS, and, as is always
done with those ORIGINALS, they have to be checked with each individual's
common sense and intuition.  

8
Do they change, alter or supplement? Determine, each one for themselves, if
they are logical, fair, and true.

9
How should older students regard such things? I would say that depends on
their own grasp and knowledge of what has already been explained. 

10
Is anyone's freedom being abridged or truncated? That is an individual
matter to be determined. No one is "forced" to accept anything in
THEOSOPHY.

11
If an "organization" is wrong, then why have anything to do with it? There
are no final "authorities" in THEOSOPHY except each individual mind for
itself.

As to "brainwashing" -- everyone is free to decide if that is taking place.

No one is compelled to do anything, or read., or believe in anything, in our
all-supporting Universe, are they? If so, why?   

If at all, fear and ignorance may compel for a while; but usually, if one
is active and not lazy, then one acquires wisdom and knowledge, and then
fear of the unknown is dissipated.  

I say that THEOSOPHY provides such knowledge. Check out its basic premises
and doctrines for yourself. Are they true, or untrue? Do you "like" them
or "dislike" them? The choice is yours as a free person, and the same
freedom exists for everyone else. What else can be observed?

12
I say: all individuals have the freedom to make up their own minds and take
the consequences. Karma will decide ultimately, will it not? In any case
everyone does this from second to second all life long. 

13
I am of the opinion that we owe a great debt to HPB and the Masters. I
react strongly when I detect some effort is being made to impugn their
integrity and the respect due to Them, for their generosity towards us, and
for their continued Work to enfranchise the many minds of our humanity.  

So I protest and ask for proof of what may be stated. No more. Sometimes,
an explanation or some proof is given, and it has been my experience over
the years that in most cases it has not been given. 

If no proof is advanced, then I assume none is available. In all cases I
compare what is said with other sources. 

What fault is to be found with that? 

Best wishes,

Dallas

===============================
 
-----Original Message-----

From: Morten 
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:16 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: Actual malice (libel on theos-talk)


Hallo Dallas and all,

My views are:

I asked:

Is there no theosophical organisations who cling to certain theosophical
texts in a cult-like manner, while they attract new theosophical Seekers and
leads them astray by saying that only the old texts has any real value ?

And your answer came in the below.

Now I know, what the truth about the present day theosophists are.

-------

A few more comments:

1. I find it to be very true, that both your overall presentation here at 
theos-talk and others various activities are heavily influenced by age / or
shall we say "looking back" and also influenced by the heavy use of old
theosophical scriptures in a manner which to a certain degree leads the new
seekers astray or distorts what theosophy really is. - 


This because their content are not relating to our present time
with the understanding that humanity in fact has evolved since 1875.


Let us face the facts. - New Age brainwashing organisations are not just 
swallowed by the seekers without a prolonged digestion-phase these days.


I say this, because to many outsiders the various theosophical groups are 
viewed as mere brainwashing organisations and nothing else.

2. Have Blavatsky ever written anything about "manipulation" or brainwashing

?

I will find any written statement by her on such an issue to be of the 
greatest importance.

3. Again Dallas I choose my own definition of the word "Brainwashing".
The definition of "brainwashing" is as far as I understand it covered by the
words "being manipulated".

4. Dallas, The question is whether one aught to promote THEOSOPHY or 
theosophy ?

Dallas I think you have chosen THEOSOPHY - while clinging heavily to 
THEOSOPHICAL terminology and most often "looking back".

I prefer theosophy. Blavatsky preferred theosophy.

5. I do like it when you - as in the below -use your own words to explain 
it all.

But, these were just my views.

from
M. Sufilight with peace and love...



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval14@e...>
To: "'Morten N. Olesen'" <global-theosophy@a...>
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 12:40 AM
Subject: RE: Theos-World Actual malice (libel on theos-talk)



Nov 11 2004

Dear N.

In my opinion: The presentation of evidence is not influenced by the age,
nature or persons offering it. Evidence stands on its own feet.

Examples:
Mathematics: 2 + 2 = 4 ; 2 x 2 = 4 ;

Geometry: area = length x breadth; Parallel lines never intersect.

Logic and Ethics: A lie is a perversion of the truth.

"Belief" is usually the acceptation of "authority" without verification.

"Faith" is usually dependence on ones own perceived evidence or an
acceptance of the affirmation of an other. It therefore may be
"self-proved," or "blind." But it cannot be enforced on anyone.

Coercion is an imposition backed by threats and force; and acceptance is
usually because of fear of the unknown.

Etc....

How old are those basics ? Who objects to them ? They are as old as
evolution and science goes -- back into the night of time. Are therefore
suspect? Try and live a day without them.

Brainwashing implies enforcement. In my opinion it is the enforcement that
is wrong, not the evidence. It can be achieved by various means, usually the
psychological effect of physical constraint inducing fatigue and
deprivation, the use of light and sound repetitively, drugs. torture, or
some combinations thereof. It is not willingly accepted by anyone except
the trusting and the naïve. And that makes up a large section of our
population all over the world.

The perpetuation of feuds, bigotry, fanaticism and limited patriotism are
examples of this. That scientists accept, profess and practice any
theological rites and doctrines implies they do not apply the scientific
method of careful analysis and observation in that area; and, perhaps they
bow to peer pressure, the customs of their society, communal mores, or
laziness. I have also observed well-meaning parents indoctrinating their
young children in religious bigotry, or the limited patriotism certain
political factions exact (such as a blind hatred of certain religions,
races, and other neighbouring countries) -- and to that extent many of us
were somewhat "brainwashed" in infancy, and, we still carry that impress.

If we live in a universe of law, then what causes lawlessness? If on the
other hand Law is not prevalent, then why live at all? If there are no goals
for man and the evolutionary sweep, then why this futility? Why worry? Why
question? Why the desire for self-preservation, seclusion, isolation and
selfishness? In the long run, in the final days of any persons' life, what
good do these do?

Thought can be logical or illogical. What makes the difference?

If anyone desires to learn about a subject, don't they look up what is said
on the subject. Ergo. If you wish to know what THEOSOPHY is then go to its
exposition. No one is compelled. Everyone is free to read or not. But is
not the source and basis usually the most reliable to start from ? The mere
claim that some proposition is "theosophical" does not make it so. As I
said the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY has no patent on THEOSOPHY. The Catholic
church of Rome has no patent on Christianity. Are the wars of conquest, and
invasions down the ages ever truly assisted those who were invaded and
conquered? Were they Necessary?

As I see it THEOSOPHY has several aspects. It speaks to and describes:

1 The rules and laws of the Universe. The evolution of systems,
worlds and races of men. Similarity, analogy and correspondence reveals
repetitive patterns, in every department of Nature. It is Nature that keeps
us all alive. Can these basic rules and systems not be individually
discovered, and then made plain to others, for them to independently
investigate? Who wants to keep knowledge and wisdom sequestered? Why?

2 Then there are: Reports on individual research and verification or
problems that arise and deserve further attention and solution.

3 Further, there are: Active investigation, and inquiry as time
passes and events occur. This ads to the accumulation of evidence I think.

Essentially, to me, THEOSOPHY is a "freedom" and "equal access" approach,
and not one where individuals are expected to surrender their capacity for
individual investigation, skepticism and questioning.

Theologies (and the politics of false patriotism) demand that, and usually
provide shields and veils to prevent their being deeply questioned and
investigated.
[Note: I do not hold to the theory that THEOSOPHY is the "property" of the
THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY. It is the "property" of everyone.]

The true Theosophist is essentially a "heretic." ["Heretic" means "a
questioner." He takes nothing for granted. He is the bane of the fanatical
and dogmatic theologian and the authoritarian of any system.

This does not preclude the presentation of anything that has been
discovered, and seems worthwhile being exposed for verification. That is
the job of every student / teacher. That is the value of our study groups,
magazines and Internet forums.

Look at the sequence of modern theosophical literature.

HPB started with ISIS UNVEILED (1877) -- it shows the history and current
existence of many facts omitted or hidden by both science and theology. It
asks that they be investigated. It is interesting to note how many of these
are still concealed. Why ? [See the books of Charles Fort, Emmanual
Velikovsky, HPB, Van Danniken (?), John Anthony West, etc... Who is today
pursuing those avenues of research? ]

The SECRET DOCTRINE was published 11 years later in 1888. It proposes to
offer evidence showing how the actual evolution of the Earth has occurred.
It the deals extensively with the growing tips of Science as it was in those
days. If one coincidentally reads (1889-90) the TRANSACTIONS OF THE
BLAVATSKY LODGE it is seen how those were extending even then.

In the meantime through the medium of the magazines THEOSOPHIST, PATH and
LUCIFER, the currency of investigation and debate provided ever increasing
evidence of the accuracy of THEOSOPHICAL doctrines and statements.

This work has been continued since then by magazines like THEOSOPHY (in Los
Angeles since 1912) and THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT (in Bombay since 1929), VIDYA
(Sta. Barbara since 1973), FOHAT (Edmonton), THEOS-WORLD and THEOS-TALK
(Los Angeles ), and AQUARIAN THEOSOPHIST (Los Angeles).

As I see it, the interest in the broad subjects of THEOSOPHY has increased
rather than diminished.

-------------------------------------

Look over this list:

SOME OTHER SOURCES AND LINKS:

====================


AQUARIAN THEOSOPHIST ultinla@j...
[ Monthly magazine, Email - gratis]

BLAVATSKY NET www.http://www.blavatsky.net
[ Original Texts and Articles available for reading and
downloading Links ]

CONCORD GROVE PRESS www.theosophy.org/home.htm
[ U L T Santa Barbara, VIDYA magazine and
Articles by Wadia and others on Theosophy )


FOHAT Magazine E-mail: fohat@t...


UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS, Los Angeles
www.ult-la.org (and) www.ULT. org

[Reprints by photo-copy and verbatim of original
THEOSOPHICAL texts. Ask for catalog.


PHOENIX ULT www.phx-ult-lodge.org/
[ "On-line" reprints, can be downloaded free, of

The SECRET DOCTRINE
ISIS UNVEILED
The VOICE OF THE SILENCE
THE THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY, H P B
The KEY TO THEOSOPHY
A MODERN PANARION
FIVE YEARS OF THEOSOPHY
TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE
The OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY - Judge
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS AT AN INFORMAL "OCEAN
OF THEOSOPHY" CLASS by Robert Crosbie
POINT OUT THE WAY (Ans. to Quest. on "Ocean")
FRIENDLY PHILOSOPHER (Robert Crosbie)
ETERNAL VERITIES (for Theosophy School use)
EPITOME OF THEOSOPHY
ECHOES FROM THE ORIENT
FORUM ANSWERS - Judge
TEXTS FOR THEOSOPHICAL MEETINGS
The UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS -
Its Mission and its Future
LIGHT ON THE PATH
LIGHT OF ASIA - Sir Edwin Arnold
THE BHAGAVAD GITA
NOTES ON THE BHAGAVAD GITA
The DHAMMAPADA
Etc...


RUDY'S PAGE www.teosofia.com/
[Magazine reprinted:
THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT, Bombay, monthly ]
Link to Spanish speaking exchanges.


THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT Magazine
(reprints available) www.teosophia.com/
www.ultindia.org


THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY PASADENA
www.theosociety.org


THEOSOPHICAL-TALK Theos-Talk@yahoogroups.com
(Discussion exchange group - E-mail - gratis)

THEOSOPHICAL UNIVERSITY PRESS
www.theosociety.org/tupress/
tupress@t...
[ SUNSET, (monthly) and edited Theosophical Texts ]


THEOSOPHICAL WORLD Theos-World@yahoogroups.com
[Monthly Magazine, E-mail ]


THEOSOPHY COMPANY, www.theosophycompany.org
Los Angeles www.ult-la.org (and) www.ULT. org

[ THEOSOPHY Magazine, quarterly ] and
[Original Theosophical texts by Mme. Blavatsky, W Q Judge ]
www.theosophycompany.org/

THEOSOPHY DISCOVERY CIRCLE
www.geocities.com/theosophycircle
[ Study and Discussion, New York City]


THEOSOPHY LIBRARY ON LINE www.theosophy.org/home.htm
[ U L T Santa Barbara, Concord Grove Press
VIDYA Magazine, quarterly)


THEOSOPHY Magazine www.theosophycompany.org/editors
[ THEOSOPHY Magazine, Quarterly, Los Angeles ]


THEOSOPHY WORLD Theos-World@yahoogroups.com
[ Monthly Magazine, E-mail only, gratis]


VIDYA Magazine (quarterly) www.theosophy.org/home.htm


WISDOM WORLD www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html
[Reprints from THEOSOPHY Magazine - many topics
and subjects covered. Index available.]


=========================================


ASSOCIATED SOURCES
______________________


Blavatsky Archives www.blavatskyarchives.com/

Blavatsky Foundation ww.azstarnet.com/blafon

Blavatsky Online Reading Room www.blavatsky.net/Caldwell/index.htm

BLAVATSKY TRUST (U K) www.blavatskytrust.org

MODERN THEOSOPHY
www.geocitieskatinkaHasselink/other/other.htm

Spanish www2.widbey.net/Theosophical Literature/espagnol.htm
www.Teosofia.com/PT.html
E-mail: pregunta@t...


T S Online Library
www.theosophical.org/resources/library/webcat/index.html

----------------------------------


THEOSOPHY FOR THE BLIND

THE THEOSOPHICAL BOOK ASSOCIATION FOR THE BLIND.
516 N. Lucas drive,
Santa Maria, CA.
93454-3828

=====================================

You will see that investigative work proceeds in spite of all obstacles.

Best wishes,

Dallas

========================

-----Original Message-----
From: M
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 6:01 AM
To: dalval14@e...
Subject:

Hallo Dallas and all,

The definition of "brainwashing" is as far as I understand it covered by the
words "being manipulated".

1.
So what risk - so to speak - are the new Theosophical beginners running by
reading those very old theosophical texts some theosophical Seekers cling to
so eagerly?

2.
I will ask you, if you think, that there is no Jesuitic sorcerers or
Pharisee's around anymore ?

3.
Is there no theosophical organisations who cling to certain theosophical
texts in a cult-like manner, while they attract new theosophical Seekers and
leads them astray by saying that only the old texts has any real value ?

==========================

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval14@e...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:24 AM
Subject:


Nov 11 2004

Dear M:

In THEOSOPHY the human mind is considered to be dual.

1 The Higher Manas which considers virtuous matters, and

2 The Lower Mind which considers selfish and personal matters.

It is this latter the Lower Mind that might be "brainwashed" if it is
passive and allows that to happen to it. The active and self-possessed mind
will not permit brainwashing to occur.

Best wishes

Dallas

===============================

-----Original Message-----
From: M
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 12:40 PM
To:
Subject:


Hallo all,

A view to consider:

I would like to refer to the following page:
"THE MANIPULATED MIND
Brainwashing, Conditioning and Indoctrination
Denise Winn
Malor Books, 2000

Most of us cherish our values of individual freedom of thought.

cut




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