Theos-Talk Archives (October 2004 Message tt00189)

Oct 8 2004



Dear G.:



Here are some notes below in yours



Excuse brevity.



Dal



=======================



Dallas



-----Original Message-----
From: N
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 1:32 AM
To: DTB
Subject: Re: Your reply, Nice try but no cigar







Dear DTB,



So happy to see your post and glad that you have taken the time and effort
to try and answer directly.



To my first question about entering a state of indifference to ones actions
and still be able to have a meaningful existence you replied " I am not
conscious of doing that" 



I'm sorry, I thought that as you pointed out in your post on "The Spiritual
and the Psychic" one of the six glorious virtues was attaining "Perfect
indifference to the fruits of ones actions, both here and hereafter"
(Renunciation of the fruits of ones actions.) 



I thought that as a practicing teacher you had accepted this point and
practiced what you preached. No?............ Your either indifferent or
your short on one of the six glorious virtues.





=======================================



DTB The designation is always "student." As students we exchange
information and experiences - so as to help one another. In effect, the
Universe and our momentary experiences as we live in it are our teachers. 



The real "Teachers" are Perfected Man - Those we call the "Masters of
Wisdom." (Mahatmas - Great Souls) It a condition we are striving to attain
as we live life after life. {The immortal MONAD and its many incarnations.}



As MONADS we are the "Perceivers," and, we are always detached from any
event - and are able to look at those impersonally. 



This faculty is universally available to all men/minds as thinkers. But it
can be made impersonal and can be sharpened by use. 



As I see it the usage is always to be virtuous in all we do. Therefore
Krishna says we ought not to act with a "hoped for result" as our objective.




The desire for such a "result" attaches us to it karmically, and if it
should be a bad one, we are delayed and fettered to that extent. The
"desire" does that. So it is the desire faculty that has to be observed,
analysed as to its purity and if necessary controlled. That is as I see it.




We learn all the time and pass on what seems to us true and valuable, and
let the recipient (he / she being assumed to be free-willed) to make up
their own mind as to use or value. 



Remember: "No Leaders." Also we are all Monads -- being constituted of the
same essentials: SPIRIT - MATTER - MIND. We are, in effect, interiorly in
our Higher Self, a "ray" of the ONE UNIVERSAL SELF. (The Higher Self being
"Atma.") -- this is why THEOSOPHY tries to establish a nucleus of Universal
Brotherhood. That is to restore to our active consciousness the fact of
reality within that embraces us all.



Perfection is something to be always striven for. I am not sure that we
ever completely achieve it. It is an attempt to widen our perception to
include the whole Universe in our purview when needed. 



More important, is the study (in and around ourselves) of universal Law:
Karma. It operates everywhere and holds the whole universe ourselves
included together. It is not cold and unkind but rather warm and protective.
Consider how we know so little of the sciences that hold our life together
in this our multi-purpose body. It is nature, and universal Law (karma)
that does that for us. It does it quite impersonally for the good and the
evil persons - and one wonders why. The incoming events and circumstances of
our diverse lives, the desires, thoughts, urges and concepts we have -- have
to be treated as lessons to be examined and learned from. Being the
Perceiver, we can do this and thus take advantage of the strange duality of
our minds. We have a totally moral and ethical, virtuous MIND, and another,
one that tries to connive at doing some terrible things (vicious and
unethical) - and we know that there and then we have to choose our course of
action. This is for us the real learning process. 



I would say that our perception of virtue is the same as the ability to
perceive the justice of Karma operating in the world / universe and in
ourselves as immortal individuals. 



[There are a few principal ideas I found useful:



1 The Universe is essentially pure and spiritual, just and fair. 



{Some call it the Deity, others give it the designation of "God," and then
name IT. Priests, arising from the devotees of great prophets and
reformers, devise rites, rituals, beliefs (unproven), dogmas and religions
-- which become exclusive clubs, and eventually feud and war with others for
no valid reason.}



2 It divides itself into innumerable immortal parts - Monads - 



{The purpose being to generate by experience replicas of Itself -- in every
part of Itself - and from itself -- independent miniature Universes which
are imbued with the primary urge of cooperation and brotherly interaction.
Mankind marks a special stage of this process whereby these independent
entities prove to themselves that they can live harmlessly with all the
rest. [In other words "bad" karma the result of destructive tendencies, is
in such individuals, checked and subjugated for good.}



3 Its Laws are fairness, justice and equity for all. Or Universal
Brotherhood . 



{In the "lower kingdoms," this is called "evolution by natural impulse." In
Man this changes to self-controlled guidance and self-effort. It is
individually conducted by a virtuous mind that has proved to itself that the
whole of Nature is honest, fair, merciful and just in its operations.}



4 We as humans are thus in a special category. 



We, as minds, can perceive and reason. We also have very personal desires.
The Mind as superior to desire can direct and control it - so that it does
not destroy itself by wild unregulated excesses. Regulated desires are of a
moral, virtuous quality. Unregulated they become vicious - (Think that
over, is it true.)



5 Every human is a "son /daughter" of the Universe (Or ONE DEITY)
hence interiorly we are all immortal relations .



6 Every being - atom, grain of sand, bit of moss, ant, bee, spider
or dog, horse, elephant or whale - are forms of the animal kingdom, and the
culmination of their development may be called the individualization of
"instinct." 



============================



But enough of a diversion, lets get back to your points



"Indifference" is a term used in the BHAGAVAD GITA by Krishna in an attempt
to get Arjuna (the pupil) to act, righteously and let the results follow
without anxiety or anticipation. You do have the BHAGAVAD GITA ?



Indifference is a quality of equity or balance exercised by the interior
Buddhi-Manas - the Wise-Mind. It is the reservoir of our past experience as
an immortal being and provides us with warnings, such as "Don't do that --
you did it before and you suffered." In just a flash. If we are wise, we
hesitate, reconsider and decide. Sometimes unwisely !!!!



=======================================



Your other answers to my questions simply put us back on the merry go round,
but your last answer, or lack of it tells the tale complete. 



========================



DTB I think I am missing something here - don't remember, but not
intentional.



============================



Your arguments on charity and greed are true but conditional as you well
know. We all receive to the value of the energy expelled, energy that
radiates outward which benefits all. Business does extract in the form of
money (societies means of transferring energy) but in the process provides a
service and or a commodity, jobs for employees, and taxes for Government
which are distributed in many ways to benefits the whole of society. An
employee (for example a teacher) receives payment for energy expelled in the
effort to educate, and pays taxes also. Is this greed or need? These taxes
also enter the loop and are distributed via Government to benefit society.
Taken on this smaller scale you can see it benefiting lets say people with
illnesses. A person with a bad back can receive a disability pension
(compassion at work) or someone down on their luck and unemployed,
unemployment benefits (compassion at work) until they can stand on their
own two feet.



====================================



DTB Quite true - I always looked on business as an expression of service
to others. From that a reasonable profit supports owner and employees - and
of course all the rest. In that, as in everything else one has to take a
long-term view. 



Its always a balance - equity.



========================================



Nature is far less compassionate though and the laws of nature are blunt.
If an animal is sick lame or too young to fend for itself it quickly finds
itself at the mercy of the elements and deaths door. But then it can
equally be argued that nature provides (and it does) all that is required
for survival. All that needs to be done is to expel energy and it is
returned. That's not to say that business is there for the benefit of
society or an employee works with the thought in mind that they benefit
society no, but that occurs. 



==================================



DTB Survival of a form is one thing. All forms, when they reach their
life-term, die, and are dispersed -- to be reassembled later on as a "new"
form for the Soul's future use. Many of the life-atoms in our bodies today,
are "returners" like that. [Just thin of the vast reservoir of life-atoms
and molecules, living, floating in the atmosphere of gads, water and
minerals all around us. Think of the complexity of the laws governing them
and their movements. And we are mostly unaware of that. ]



Survival of the MONAD, the inner being (Mind - Soul - Spirit) that energizes
our physical form is another. Most philosophies lack this 2nd concept.
THEOSOPHY looks on the survival of the entity as not limited to form but to
its essential life-source: the "Intelligent Soul/mind full of its reservoir
of life-energy." Now what would that be in a human being? 



Mind, consciousness, soul, spirit, acquired wisdom? I would say all that.




In analogetic terms what survives sleep? What dreams? What returns to our
bodies after the gap of unconsciousness (to the brain-mind) we call sleep?
And what exactly is the real "WE?" 



As to compassion: How is that to be fully described? Forgiveness?
Special dispensations? Intercession with a "Personal God?" Here is a vast
problem.



Priest have made religions and creeds of this down the ages. They assume to
know, or to have the "ear of God." They can get Him" to relent? Well can
they? 



What underlies Nature's ways which appear so rigid? 



Ca nature be unfair to some and fair to others? I always ask: Who and How
are the victims compensated? Why does the "punishment not fit the crime?"
Why does the criminal not make amends? If so how is that done? Who in the
final analysis pays? 



What distinguishes man's intelligence from that of the "lower kingdoms" --
mineral, vegetable, animal ? If there is a distinction, then what is its
purpose in the vast economy of nature ( the Universe?) .



==================================



Nature is what it is and the sun shines for everyone, just not equally.
It's too hot at the equator and too cold at the poles but perhaps where you
are just right. Same with the wind and all the elements. One must take the
good and accept the not so good. 





Not all businesses or individuals run morally. 



==========================



DTB Unfortunately.



=========================



Some have found dispassion the most useful of tools and so just as we
protect ourselves from the elements we must always be on the lookout for rip
off merchants. Those that provide their wares without conscience just like
nature, while at the same time taking the high moral ground. By the way,
what business are you in?



=======================================



DTB Now retired but previously: Publishing, printing, book-selling,
editing, and all the time essentially a student, lapping up information
about the past and present in as many departments of knowledge as my mind
could embrace. Leisure was largely reading and experimenting - testing the
knowledge acquired. Also a color-matcher, and time-motion efficiency
expert.



=====================================



So the deeper we go the more we see the truth. The polar regions and the
tropics are just different faces of nature but they co exist, independent
and yet inextricably linked. We too are linked and must coexist and my
arguments or points of view are just positions taken just like yours. We
can argue and debate these views until the cows come home but as you say the
truth will always remain the TRUTH irrespective of how it is twisted bent or
manipulated. 



===================================



DTB So the sooner we use it and live it, the better.



=================================



Something to dwell on which may be of assistance.



Good & Harmony and evil and disharmony are synonymous... all pain and
suffering are the result of want of Harmony, and that the one terrible and
only cause of disturbance of harmony is selfishness in some form or another.




===============================



DTB Above you mention the poles of duality and opposition which are
always joined by comprehension; and all the intermediate mixes emanate from
the dual extremes. 



============================





Hence Karma gives back to every man the actual consequences of his own
actions, without regard to their moral character; but since he receives his
due for all, it is obvious that he will be made to atone for all sufferings
which he has caused, just as he will reap in joy and gladness the fruits of
all happiness and harmony he has helped to produce. Key, p 206-7 



==================================



DTB I think the "moral character" is everything, unless I misunderstand
the use of the word. 



As polar opposites we have virtue and vice. A Vice is usually an
exaggerated virtue. It is also the result (usually) of our seeking to impose
our ways on others. 



Karma is directly related to the way in which vice and virtue are
characterized and in us, to the way in which we live our secret lives (our
inner motives) . Interiorly we always know whether we are honest or not.
The Voice of Conscience (accumulated wisdom from our past many lives ) ought
to be our guide (it is the voice of Atma-Buddhi -- our Higher Self).



==========================================





Trusting your not too indifferent to that.





--------------------------------------



Best wishes as always, 



Dal



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]