Re: Theos-World Theosophical truth-claims contra evidence ?
Sep 30, 2004 03:37 AM
In a message dated 09/27/04 4:11:41 AM, firstname.lastname@example.org
<<1)You wrote;"practiced a form of ritual black magic"
What black magic, and what is the evidence Hitler would have been a
member (of which exactly) occult societies ?>>
Ritualized slaughter of innocent victims, ritual suicide, along with
psychically potent "mind control" propaganda techniques, including written, audio and
visual symbolism's used to induce blind sanction of such activities by the
public, are certainly valid evidence of black magical practices. All master
politicians use such methods, consciously or unconsciously, but none as obviously
knowledgeable of occult black magical practices as Hitler -- when he suddenly
became the leader and spokesman for the Nazi Party, and was given the secret
of turning on his charisma at will. That's an old occult trick that one can
only learn by either a long study of occultism (for which there is evidence
judging from his writings and as also reported by Ravenscort that Hitler did
study the Secret Doctrine) -- or (for someone like Hitler) training under the wing
of a Master occultist member of one of the German occult secret societies
such as the OTA, Golden Dawn, Order of the New Templars, the Germanenorden, the
Edda, the Vril Society, and other "Thule" connected occult groups.
Evidence of such occult training and knowledge can be observed directly and
requires no questionable recorded confirmation of membership in any secret
society. Thus, any knowledgeable theosophist, kabbalist, or student of occultism,
who observed the Nazi organizations and their activities first hand could not
help but conclude that it was based on a "black" magical corruption of occult
teachings and its fundamental principles and laws.
It's perfectly obvious, then, from the writing, speech and actions of Hitler
that he was a willing student of one or more "black magician" Masters of such
practices. Therefore, he had to be either an initiated "member" of their
Secret Societies, or a disciple of a member who gave him direct training,
assistance or advice.
Necessarily, such occult practices being based on "secret" teachings known
only to a few -- there would be NO written record of such study or membership.
Those who have eyes to see and ears to hear will know all this without
recourse to second hand evidence.
In another sense, Hitler could very well have been, if not an initiated
occultist himself, a mind controlled puppet of a "behind the scenes" black magician
who "operated" him. Who that might be can only be speculated upon -- but
there were many powerful occultists surrounding Hitler and other leaders and
founders of the Nazi party throughout their reign in Germany. It's interesting
that most of them, such as Himmler, Hesse, Heydrich, Haushoffer, Eckardt,
Rosenberg, etc, were all mixed up with occult organizations or some sort of
<<2) You wrote; "If anyone needs documented "proof" of such "claims"
they should do some research">>
I meant, they should do their own research. And that means, in this case,
either finding someone (besides myself) with related first hand observational
experience, along with a knowledge of what exactly is "occultism" or "black
magic" -- or else, find out for themselves exactly what occult practices are and
how to recognize them through their symbology, metaphors and allegories. It
would also help to read the writings as well as the biographies of Hitler along
with histories of the growth of Nazism in Germany. Then, make their own
judgments as to whether or not Hitler was an occultist, or whether or not the Third
Reich was based on occult black magical knowledge related to German secret
societies, or if the SS had a ritual initiatory practice -- with "Der Fuehrer" as
their god-ikon, along with a worship of "Blood and Honor" based on the same
"black magic" occult practices that energized Hitler, his SS, and the entire
Nazi Party hierarchy.
In my view, that entire affair was a conspiracy of black magicians, many of
whom were also royalists, elitists, and military industrialists (not all of
them Germans, BTW) related to the "Dugpas" spoken of by HPB -- who's goal was to
take over and dictatorially control the world for their own selfish and greedy
aims, and who used Hitler as their "front man" or tool. My observations,
while in Germany during and just after the war, and careful analysis of all the
factors surrounding that incident in world history, seems to confirm that view.
<<Theo Paijmans already mentioned that he was NO member of the Thule
society, there is ample evidence that he wasn't in fact.>>
What authority is that? What "ample evidence"? Who are we kidding? Could
anyone ever "prove" to a third party that you or anyone else questioning my
"evidence" was NOT a member of such a secret society whose major objective was to
justify the actions of Hitler, the Nazis and the Third Reich? :-)
<<As for research have you at least read "Black Sun"(the prime book on
the subject to date) by Goodrick-Clarke he clearly covers all the
points you mention and writes they are a ly, according to him there
is noting true of what you write.>>
And, what authority is he (or you, to claim that this book is the "prime"
source "on the subject to date")? And, on what evidence does he "prove," that
what I know about Hitler and the Occult Reich -- based on my direct observation
of their SS libraries, first hand experience of their secret ritual practices,
and careful analysis of their public activities -- is not true or a lie?
Where is his evidence for such a claim? Let's see some quotes, please, if you
intend to use this book, or any other documents as a refutation of my direct
observations and knowledgeable conclusions.
As for "Black Sun"... Goodrick-Clarke perfectly confirms that the Nazis were
familiar with and used black magical occult practices to mesmerize their
followers... And also surmised that the same thing could be occurring in America
today due to the black wing members of an occult spinoff group emanating from
the German mystic schools rooted in ancient Masonry (whose "brothers" have both
a "black" and a "white" wing, BTW) that may have been working behind the
scenes for many years since WW2, and may be the "shadow government" behind the
executive branch of the USA -- with much power and control of the legislative and
Judicial branches (not to mention the mass media) -- and with another
charismatic puppet "leader" at the helm.
Could this be another attempt by those same black lodges to take over the
world on both an economic and social level, and ultimately obtain their "New
World Order"... Where the many are ruled dictatorially (by misdirection, through
fear inducing propaganda and disinformation) by the few, and are treated like
so much cannon fodder as well as "human resource" commodities that benefit the
"military-industrial-congressional" complex (that General Eisenhower warned us
about in the 50s and which I overheard the seeds of planted in 1945) -- all
of which was so closely predicted in Orwell's 1984, Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451,
(not to mention HPB and Nostradamus:-) and pictured in Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11?
<<Goodrick-Clarke is a Theosophist by the way, he spook at the recent
TH Conference in London.>>
Big deal. And that makes him an "authority" on the Third Reich. LOL
<<I also notice that Theo Paijmans is a published author who is known
in fact to have already done extensive research in the areas you
just made the most outragious claims about. >>
Another big deal. What makes that authoritative? (I'm a "published author"
but never use that to establish my authority on anything. :-)
Not to denigrate his research, however... In fact, it actually clarified
much of what I was saying. Nevertheless -- since positive research based on
public information about an occult organization or society does not prove anything
about the inner workings or membership of that group, nor can it be taken as
denial about anything carried out by it in secret. Thus, the real activities
of such occult groups can never be exposed by researched public information
(no matter how carefully and thoroughly it was done)... But, only by direct
inside experience and observation, or by logical analysis of observed effects of
such actions based on previously acquired occult knowledge. This knowledge
includes correct interpretation of occult symbology, metaphors and allegories, as
well as the methods of psychic mind control that they use or teach others to
My direct experience, based on such clear observation and correct
interpretation, coupled with first hand knowledge from verifiably accurate observers
trained in military espionage, as well as my own early training in occultism and
symbolical understanding by my occultist father, is far more accurate than any
second hand opinions gathered by hearsay that could be lies, or from research
into written documents that could easily be forged or "smoke screened." Of
course, one could also say that about my reports -- since I have no "records" or
"documents" to prove that I was even there and did what I said during WW2 :-)
So, I guess you'll all have to take it or leave it, believe it or not --
that I know exactly what I am talking about in my "outrageous claims." However,
I'm sure that anyone here who has been through the third or fourth initiation
in the SD will be totally acceptant of these claims -- should they also be
familiar with the inner workings of the Nazi government of the Third Reich that
is a matter of public record.
<<3) You wrote: "there were many Tibetan Dugpas brought into Germany
who cooperated with them."
Where what is the evidence for that?>>
Read my post of yesterday in response to Theo's research and his more or less
<<I always thought this was an invention of Pauwels and Bergier.>>
Never heard of them. (Besides, name dropping doesn't prove anything, so I
checked them out on the web. :-) How does anyone know (since they were both
scientifically and metaphysically oriented) that what could be assumed by the
casual reader as seemingly "invented" fiction, wasn't rooted in valid
conclusions based on carefully considered subjective and/or objective observational
evidence? Maybe they even talked with the same unimpeachable (at least, in my
view) sources I got that information from. :-)
<<Your answer that 'it satisfy's you'(but obviously nobody else at
least not on theos-talk as far I can see, where you decided to go
public wich on first sight I would say are inventions) would
normally indicate somebody who just try's to get attention. I am not
suggesting this is indeed the case, but if not backed by evidence
your claims are worthless I hope you understand that.>>
Then, anyone can take them for whatever they think they are worth -- since I
have all the direct evidence I need. And, if my word isn't good enough --
then... Take it or leave it... No skin off my nose. :-).
Besides, I hope you understand that all your remarks -- which seem to be
based solely on your personal opinions, biases, and off the cuff presumptions --
can be placed in the same category ;-)
In fact, how can you presume to speak for anyone else whom I may have written
or told these observations to (which to me are experiential facts)?
My only purpose on this forum, besides searching for people of like mind, is
to answer questions and inform the questioner (and anyone else looking in) of
anything I knew that is related to their question and that might help them
understand the true occult nature of reality a bit better.
<<Theo P. wrote; Post WW2 researchers however,have found no real
evidence to suggest that Hitler was involved whatsoever in the Thule
Gesellschaft (see: Detlev Rose, "Die Thule Gesellschaft, legende,
Mythos, Wirklichkeit", Grabert Verlag, 1994, or Friedrich Heller &
Anton Maegerle, "Thule", Schmetterling verlag, 1998).>>
Again, lack of evidence that something happened is no proof that it didn't...
Especially, if such a happening is based on the inner doings of occult
"secret" societies." Actually, my use of the words "Thule groups" included all the
other secret occult societies that spun out of the ancient and early
historical Masons, Rosicrucians, Knight Templar, etc. -- which, certainly, some of
Hitler's closest advisors and colleagues were initiated members of -- if not,
openly, himself. Incidentally, I could consider myself a "member" of all occult
societies, since I know just about as much of the occult "mysteries" as they
do -- but I have never signed up as a "recorded" member of any of them. (And,
even if I did, no one could find out about it -- unless they were also a
<<As to the Thule Gesellschaft being a society of a deeply occult
nature, that is discounted according to these studies. When there
was any occultism, it involved merely lectures on mundane esoteric
subjects by certain members, which evoked remarks by other members
that they were 'sick and tired' of these esoteric rants. As to
Himmler and the SS being involved in "black magic rituals", there
are some very good sudies on what the SS was, that balance such a -
although suitably romantic Indiana Jones style - view.
Notably Heinz Hohne, "The Order of the Death's Head" Coward McCann,
1970, or Karl Huser, "Wewelsburg, Kult und Terrorstatte der SS",
verlag Bonifatius, 1987. (End quote)
I can ad that The Nazi-Occult myth started late 1930's in France,
but indeed became best via the 1960's bestseller "Morning of the
Magicians" by Pauwels and Bergier.
Plus also Rauschnings false claims, written with the help of two
French reporters as a form of propaganda, a legitimate tactic, it
should not fool historians.>>
All I can say to all that impressive erudition, is... No uninitiated
researchers, no matter how scholarly or educated, could know anything about the
memberships, inner activities or secret teachings of those societies -- which are
never written down, except in the form of metaphors, symbols, or allegories. In
addition, the external evidence, based on the actions of Hitler and the Third
Reich leadership, as well as their friends and associates, coupled with my
direct observations of the occult paraphernalia in many headquarters of the SS,
Hitler's most loyal personal guard -- are more than enough to convince me
that "my outrageous claims" and the presumptions of most other writers who spoke
about the occult nature of the Third Reich, are, to a great extent, entirely
Of course, you and all the other nay sayers, concerning Hitler's and the Nazi
Party's direct linkage to these Occult organizations can either take what I
know about it, or leave it.
Sgt. Leon. H. Maurer,
Ser. No.: 14201070 (Enlisted), MOS: 167,
US Army Air Corps, 12th TAC, 927th Sep Sig Bat, ETO (AF-IT-FR-GY) 1943-1945
"Honorably Discharged at the convenience of the Government"
--- In email@example.com, leonmaurer@a... wrote:
> >You have proof to back up your claims ?
More than enough to satisfy me.
I was there, and studied, heard, and saw it all first hand, as well
discussed it with others who also were there (including relatives,
and those who
escaped the camps and came to America sponsored by my father and
some of his
friends -- such as Dr. Einstein and other refugee scientists).
If anyone needs documented "proof" of such "claims" they should do
research, throw out their preconceived or conditioned notions and
study the historical records by those who also experienced, studied
and heard it
first hand, and find out for themselves. Other than that, if
anyone has any
contrary documented proof that would refute these "claims," (which
to me are
known facts followed by my own interpretation of them) I would be
examine and consider it.
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