Theos-Talk Archives (September 2004 Message tt00688)

Still you did not answer my question:

Which earlier documents A.Schachter refers too? Maybe he refers to early documents of your outsiders? On in your list of outsiders some are going to be insiders?
 
Also you did not consider other point I wrote:

The Kabeirion mysteries were held in many areas of Greece not only Thebes. In Imbros the Kabeirion mysteries were connected to Aries,in Thessaloniki they also found an archeological site referring to the Kabereirion Mysteriesof Thessaloniki. Would that mean that the KAbeirion mysteries were probably started in Thessaloniki?
 
Why any arqueologist did not wrote a theory that Thessaloniki was the original base of the Kabeirion mysteries? MAy be because they were considering the information of some outsiders?
 
My point of view is not fundamentalist, and if you consider Orpheus, for sample an outsider you know nothing of the Greek culture. 
 
If you hold the view that thousands of years of Greek tradition and believes have base on fundamentalism, and some theory made up by an arqueologist will erase it, you are wrong.
 
By the way I quote Blavatsky because this is a forum related to the theosophical circles. But I can stick with the quotes of your list of outsiders: Orpheus, Herodotos etc. 
 
And you stick with your list of insider the arqueologist, any way I dont even remember his name.
 
Now have you ever been in Samuthrace, do you know that is a very difficult Island? Do you know that many people die there in accidents, and someone has really to know climbing if want to explore some other areas of the island. It is not an easy place for arqueological investigations. except the areaof the temple and other few areas around the sea. 
 
Erica
 
 
You say:
Stesimbrotos, Herodotos, Mnaseas and those you quote are considerred outsiders.

SO Orpheus and he might also be considered an outsider but A.Schachter is considered an insider?

"We can confirm that the Kabiroi were father and son, for the
Theban Kabiroi appear in the earliest documents as Kabiros and Pals,the latter occasionally being referred to as the Pais of Kabiros; that is, the son.”

Which earlier documents he refers too?

The first systematic excavations on Samothrace were conducted by the Austrian A. Conze, in 1873 and 1875. His work was not only limited to Samuthrace but also Lemnos and Imbros islands. He found in one of this islands a plaque that says: The Great Gods are the Kabeirion.

The Kabeirion mysteries were held in many areas of Greece not only Thebes. In Imbros the Kabeirion mysteries were connected to Aries,in Thessaloniki they also found an archeological site referring to the Kabereirion Mysteriesof Thessaloniki. Also it was believed that Minoans and Trojan were practicing the Kabeirion mysteries.


I did not mention in any of my e-mails that they found archeological
evidences in Samuthrace. The Mysteries of this island are still very
enigmatic. But ancient writers they give us clear clues about the
nature of their mysteries and the origin of the Kabeirion. You wish
to hold a theory of an arqueologists it is your right. I do consider
the writings of Orpheus, Herodotos and many others valuable material
that give us some hints of the past.

Erica Letzerich


worlduni_news <worlduni_news@yahoo.com> wrote:
Stesimbrotos, Herodotos, Mnaseas and those you quote are considerred
outsiders. Like today people, also people in the past often wrote 
fiction. And just like today just because something is written it 
doesn't proof that it is true without other evidence to substantiate 
it.

The nature of the Kabiroi was never fully understood by Greek 
commentators, and from the earliest times they were confused with 
the `Great Gods' of Samothrace, something different altogether.

If in such a case you are not able to point to any archeological or 
other 'evidence' and just quote the 19th century books by 
Blavatsly,then this is the same as a fundamentalist Christian 
quoting the Bible or a Muslim quoting the Koran as 'scientific 
evidence'or/and archeological 'facts'.

The only, concrete evidence found to date (2004) is the Kabirion is
about six kilometres west of Thebes, in the low range of hills south
of the Teneric Plain. In the Plain, at a point about eight
kilometres west of Thebes and three north-west of the Kabirion
valley, a cemetery with graves of the Late Archaic and Classical
periods reveals the existence in the neighbourhood of a substantial
settlement: this could have been the city about which Pausanias was
told, but which had disappeared by his day. The sanctuary of Demeter
Kabeiria and Kore has not been found, but it must have been between
Thebes and the Kabirion.

The Kabirion valley is bordered on the west by a stream running
north into the Teneric Plain. Originally this valley was bisected by
a second stream coming from the east and flowing into the south-
north stream. The northern slope of the valley forms an irregular
amphitheatre. Roughly in the middle of the slope, and about half-way
up it, is an outcropping of natural rock.

In the earlier stages of the sanctuary's life building was
restricted to the southern, more open, side of the stream. The main
way into the valley throughout antiquity was at the north-west
corner, beside the south-north stream. The person who has extensivly
researched this place is been the city about which Pausanias was
told, but which had disappeared by his day. The sanctuary of Demeter
Kabeiria and Kore has not been found, but it must have been between
Thebes and the Kabirion.

A balanced view I think is presented by A.Schachter in Cults of
Boiotia 5: in BICS . Institute of Classical Studies, London, when he
writes;

"We can confirm that the Kabiroi were father and son, for the
Theban Kabiroi appear in the earliest documents as Kabiros and Pals,
the latter occasionally being referred to as the Pais of Kabiros;
that is, the son. In the cult aition as told to Pausanias, the
recipients of the mystic rites were Prometheus and Aitnaios. Their
role at the Theban Kabirion was to act as intermediaries between the
goddess and her worshippers. In the story they are humans,
Kabeiraioi (according to the manu¬scripts), but their own names are
divine, and moreover are found in other Kabiric contexts. Although
the aition is clearly influenced by the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, it
may nevertheless mask the reality in which two Kabiroi, father and
son, acted as the medium for initiates to approach the unnamed
goddess. In cult, as opposed to myth, the Mysteries were celebrated
in honour of the Kabiroi as well as the Mother. This apparent
contradiction can be reconciled by regarding the Kabiroi as the
goddess' servants, on a lower level, but still, by virtue of their
connection with the rites, within the for¬bidden circle. Pausanias'
history of the cult also refers to occasions on which the cult was
interrupted and subsequently resumed under, as it were, new
management; and elsewhere he mentions the Athenian Methapos as one
who had organized the Mysteries at the Theban Kabirion. An
examination of the archaeological evidence has allowed us to
identify two of these breaks and reorganizations. And finally, the
story Pausanias was told shows signs of how the cult was influenced
by the mystery cults of Eleusis, Samothrace, and Lemnos. The
sanctuary of Demeter Kabeiria and Kore, and indeed the very presence
of Kore, were probably imported from Eleusis, while the story of how
Demeter came to the city of the Kabeiraioi and gave the rites to two
of them is straight out of the Homeric Hymn to Demeter; the names
Pelarge and Telondes have a Samothracian ring about them, while
Prometheus and Aitnaios seem to reflect the Lemnian cult"

Their nature was never fully understood by Greek commentators, and
from the earliest times they were confused with the `Great Gods' of
Samothrace.

Again, there is no archeological evidence in situ for Kabeiroi at
Samothrace, you can check this with James R. McCredie, director of
the excavations in Samothrace conducted by the Institute of Fine
Arts of New York University for the American School of Classical
Studies.

Another specialized person is (see his Current Projects);

http://www.arts.cornell.edu/Classics/Faculty/KMC.htm


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Letzerich" 
wrote:
> THE KABEIRIA MYSTERIES
> 
> ...If one studies comparative Theogony, it is easy to find that 
the 
> secret of these "Fires" was taught in the Mysteries of every 
ancient 
> people, pre-eminently in Samothrace. There is not the smallest 
doubt 
> that the Kabeiri, the most arcane of all the ancient deities, gods 
> and men, great deities and Titans, are identical with the Kumaras 
> and Rudras headed by Kartikeya... [[Vol. 2, Page]] 86 THE SECRET 
> DOCTRINE.





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Erica Letzerich .'.






		
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