Theos-Talk Archives (September 2004 Message tt00117)

Hallo Dallas and all,

My views are:

Allright.
Maybe the following could be helpful in making you rethink the appearntly
unimportant value of hidden diamonds.

If we can do anything about Imitation, it is to spread the information of
the Real.
But our doing this depends upon the audinece being prepared. The preparation
quite possibly involves a wideness of horizon and the intelligent use of
clear thinking methods
which are largely current in all present-day societies, though only lately
coming into use
in our area of interest. Theosophists and their Imitators.

The negative attitude is to look at the imitators. The positive one, for
sure, is to remember the words of an initiate named JAR, who said that
"false gold only exists because there is such a thing as the Real..."

Q: What is the harm in imitating? I am sure that most, if not all, of the
human development systems which are publicly offered are only imitations.
If, however, these give people pleasure and some taste of a deeper reality,
they surely must have a value?

Here is a story...answering this question.

THE KNOTS STANDING IN THE WAY OF THE
TEXTILES

If you take an analogy, you might see it differently. Supposing
we were discussing the art of weaving which might be developed.
Supposing people were at a stage where they could only tie
knots in string, which gave them pleasure and might be regarded
as a fortaste of weaving. If people only imitated the
knotting phase, and in addition regarded the knotting as the entire
art - when would weaving itself come into being, no matter
how much pleasure there was attached to it? Certainly, knotting
would have a value as such: But it would constitute a barrier
to goping further if the idea of anything further were 'abolished' by
people thinking that knots were as far as anyone could go in
textile work.
There are at least two points worth noting here.
The first is that 'pleasure' certainly is not to be opposed, but
there are many sources of pleasure, and to seek pleasure as a part
of something more specific leads to confusion and more.
The second is that if you get obseessed by the early stages of
something, imagining it to be the whole, you will not go further.

---

That is why other kinds of literature - often not recognizable as
theosophical literature
has importance - even whether some leading theosophical imitators think it
has not.
Do the readers understand this?


from
M. Sufilight with peace and love...

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval14@e...>
To: "AA-BNStudy" <study@b...>
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 2:26 PM
Subject: Theos-World RE: : Pedro again on "ORIGINAL TEACHINGS"


>
> Sept 2 2004
>
> Re "ORIGINAL TEACHINGS"
>
> Dear M:
>
> I have always been in search of the characteristics of THEOSOPHY.
>
> "THEOSOPHY is said to be synonymous with ETERNAL TRUTH." Is such a
> statement correct?
>
> What do writers on THEOSOPHY say and teach, and what does IT teach and
say?
>
>
> Is there a difference between opinions and facts?
>
> Why does it choose to say those things?
>
> What logic is embodied in such statements?
>
>
> I have found some valuable definitions -- those I sent to you. Do you
think
> they are valuable?
>
>
> You question and ask if there are other writers whose opinions might be
> called "Theosophical?"
>
> Let me give you an analogy as to how I look on this matter:
>
>
> If I was in search of a Diamond would I go to a lot of other stones?
>
> Or would I first study what are the characteristics of a DIAMOND?
>
> Once I knew that then I would be able to recognize a diamond when it is
> seen.
>
>
> Same for THEOSOPHY
>
> If it is not studied then it is not recognized.
>
>
> Now what are the characteristics that you' assign to sound and true
> Theosophical writings? What definitions do you use?
>
> If you can tell me that then we can compare notes.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Dallas
> ----------------------------------
>
> I had sent for your consideration:
>
> 3 FUNDAMENTALS
>
> 1 SPACE is everywhere, and cannot be measured. It is the
UNIVERSE.
>
> 2. LAW is everywhere. It is always honest, true, fair, universal
> and impersonal. It has many aspects and all are framed so as to support
life
> everywhere.
>
> 3. The EVOLUTION of all creatures and beings (including Mankind)
> starts from the same single Spiritual Basis. It makes them all "brothers"
in
> fact, though their forms and beliefs may differ. Each follows his or her
own
> self-made path. In the end there is a Goal: it has been called SUPREME
> PERFECTION -- also, ALL KNOWINGNESS (or WISDOM).
>
> Even the material of all forms ( atoms, molecules, cells, etc. ) are
> immortals and come from the same one SOURCE: SPIRIT.
>
>
> 4 MAJOR IDEAS:
>
>
> HERMES taught: "A stone becomes a plant. A plant becomes an animal, An
> animal becomes a Man ( a THINKER), and, a Thinker becomes a
> GOD. Never is anything made less or lowered again." [The word "God" used
> here means a Thinker who can understand everything in the Universe - a
> Prophet or a Wise Man - is a "Son of 'God.'" Basically we ae all sons and
> daughters of God -- the ONE UNIVERSAL SPIRIT -- ATMAN.
>
> All progress is forward and upward and eventually we learn and know
> everything.
>
>
> 1. REINCARNATION is the process by which all beings advance. The
> forms constantly change. The Spirit that is within and behind the forms
we
> wear, and creates them, it NEVER DIES. We do NOT "die."
>
> 2. SLEEP IS DEATH. Death is sleep. The CONSCIOUSNESS of each
> individual always survives. THE FEAR OF "DEATH" IS ABOLISHED.
>
> 3. The LAW OF SPIRITUAL DEVElopment is through BROTHERHOOD. It is
> mutual help and is always cooperative. It views Humanity and all beings
as
> a single family. Wisdom is the ability to understand law operating
> everywhere in a moral and altruistic fashion
>
> 4. MAN'S (a Thinker's) DUTY is to help all others.
>
>
> Added all together, these are 7 of the principal points of Theosophical
and
> universal science, and in all true philosophies.
>
> Think about them. Try to see if they are true. Ask all the questions you
> want.
>
> If you wish to study Theosophical propositions in greater detail, I
suggest
> you start with a simple text book like
>
> The KEY TO THEOSOPHY (by H P B) (an Introduction to Theosophical
> doctrines and the ethics of Theosophy to be applied - 300 pages), or
>
> Mr. Judge's The OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY, ( a summary of The SECRET
> DOCTRINE -- which is a book that covers the history of Cosmic evolution
and
> that of our Earth and humanity - as a host of spiritual beings all working
> and living together for millions of years - 180 pages).
>
> These are available for downloading from http://www.blavatsky.net and
> http://www.ult-la.org .
>
>
> ================================
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 12:28 AM
> To:
> Subject: RE: Pedro again on "ORIGINAL TEACHINGS"
>
> Hallo Dallas and all,
>
> My views are:
>
> I take it, that you have answered my email with just
> some other questions.
>
> And have somewhat ignored the following view from my previous email:
> "Since Theosophy is wisdom teaching, it must be perfectly true, that a -
> great number of books and similar material - not containing literally the
> (dead-letter) words "theosophy" or "theosophical" in them ALSO are valid
> theosophical books and material.
> And are there any theosophical book which does NOT have any fault in them?
> Which ones have not?"
>
>
>
> M. Sufilight
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval14@e...>
> To: "AA-BNStudy" <study@b...>
> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 3:36 AM
> Subject: Theos-World RE: Pedro again on "ORIGINAL TEACHINGS"
>
>
> > Sept 1 2004
> >
> > What is Theosophy?
> >
> >
> > Here are a few considerations:
> >
> > 1
> > If you wish to trace the descent of the record of the WISDOM RELIGION
from
> > past eras, go to the great texts of those religions and philosophies,
that
> > cherish and enshrine them. However remember that all translations carry
> the
> > bias of the translator - and to that extent they are "opinionated." By
> > consulting a number of translations some of these biases are removed.
The
> > final decision and choice is always out own.
> >
> > 2
> > For THEOSOPHY; Go to the original writings of HPB and the Masters.
Read
> > and study that. Then you will at least be sure what the original
teachers
> > for this era said.
> >
> > 3
> > If you want a diversity of views not necessarily THEOSOPHICAL, then read
> > other books.
> >
> > 4
> > If you want opinions about THEOSOPHY, then consult other writers, but DO
> NOT
> > call those opinion that they offer: "THEOSOPHY."
> >
> >
> > It is said that THEOSOPHY has no two answers to any question.
> >
> >
> > If one gets different or conflicting answers, whom to trust?
> >
> >
> > Who is trying to impress who? And Why?
> >
> >
> > How much can we rely on our own common sense, intuition and power of
> thought
> > and capacity to be strictly and impartially logical?
> >
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Dallas
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Morten N. Olesen [mailto:global-theosophy@a...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 6:59 AM
> > To: Theosophy Study List
> > Subject: Re: Pedro again on "ORIGINAL TEACHINGS"
> >
> > Hallo Dallas and all,
> >
> > My views are:
> >
> > Since Theosophy is wisdom teaching, it must be perfectly true, that a -
> > great number of books and similar material - not containing literally
the
> > (dead-letter) words "theosophy" or "theosophical" in them ALSO are valid
> > theosophical books and material.
> > And are there any theosophical book which does NOT have any fault in
them?
> > Which ones have not?
> >
> > So would it then be allright to have for instance
> > - Mein Kampf on the shelves?
> > - The New Testament?
> > - The Quran?
> > - Books by A. Crowley ?
> > - Books on how to build various weapons?
> > - Only 1st editions by Leadbeater?
> >
> > ---
> > And was and is the Original teachings always the right ones?
> > Is a 2nd edition not sometimes the best?
> > ---
> > The question is where do we draw the line?
> > And Who draws the line?
> > Who makes the priorities of which books are put on the shelves? (The
buyer
> > or the seller?)
> > And what line are being drawn by the majority of teachers - locally,
> > regionally or more globally?
> > And would this line not be different from group to group?
> >
> > And is this not exactly the dilemma theosophy as the wisdom teachings as
> > such faces today, because there are so many branches of Theosophy?
> > ---
> >
> > The key is, that we can go on dicussing this line and where to draw it,
> and
> > under which circumstances.
> > Some will learn something by it, and some will find such debates
> disgusting
> > and a time waste. Others have different work to make a priority.
> >
> > But a recent post from you said, that the teaching should promote
altruism
> > and not psychic cravings. And I agree.
> >
> > ---
> >
> > The next story by Mulla Nasrudin and the Professor might be helpful.
> >
> >
> > from
> > M. Sufilight
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" <dalval14@e...>
> > To: "Theosophy Study List" <theos-l@l...>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 2:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: Pedro again on "ORIGINAL TEACHINGS"
> >
> >
> > Sept 1 2004
> >
> > Dear M and Friends:
> >
> > As far as I can see:
> >
> > No reading or study is forbidden in THEOSOPHY -- but if in the
experience
> of
> > a student something ought to receive a caution, then it is given on
that
> > basis -- as a friendly warning. No prohibitions are needed. Karma takes
> > care of all decisions anyone makes.
> >
> > As to teachers. At present there are only student/teachers. We all
> study,
> > and as inquiries arise, they pass along the information they have
obtained
> > by study from the "original Teachings of THEOSOPHY," or other sources.
> >
> > Everything has to be independently considered by the readers and
> > questioners. It is the basic principles that need to be known and
> applied.
> > (see below)
> >
> > I find that the knowledge of those "original Teachings" is slowly
> > increasing. That is a good sign for the continuity of THEOSOPHY
> >
> > There are no "leaders or teachers" who can give definitive answers to
> > problems. There are fellow students that can respond with leads for the
> > enquirer to use for his further study.
> >
> > But having studied the writings of the Teachers (HPB and the Masters)
of
> > this time and era, some writers can provide references, quotations and
> basic
> > concepts which enable enquirers to work out their own solutions.
> >
> > The questions asked below, have to be answered by each student
> > independently -- their own common sense and sense of logic assist.
> >
> > There is no "dead letter" or "literalism," and no "authorities" other
than
> > ourselves, as we compare what we study with what we know.
> >
> > The "Original teachings of THEOSOPHY" have to be treated as "guides."
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Dallas
> >
> > ----------------------------------
> >
> > Some basics:
> >
> >
> > 3 FUNDAMENTALS
> >
> > 1 SPACE is everywhere, and cannot be measured. It is the
> UNIVERSE.
> >
> > 2. LAW is everywhere. It is always honest, true, fair,
universal
> > and impersonal. It has many aspects and all are framed so as to support
> life
> > everywhere.
> >
> > 3. The EVOLUTION of all creatures and beings (including Mankind)
> > starts from the same single Spiritual Basis. It makes them all
"brothers"
> in
> > fact, though their forms and beliefs may differ. Each follows his or her
> own
> > self-made path. In the end there is a Goal: it has been called SUPREME
> > PERFECTION -- also, ALL KNOWINGNESS (or WISDOM).
> >
> > Even the material of all forms ( atoms, molecules, cells, etc. ) are
> > immortals and come from the same one SOURCE: SPIRIT.
> >
> >
> > 4 MAJOR BASIC IDEAS:
> >
> >
> > HERMES taught: "A stone becomes a plant. A plant becomes an animal, An
> > animal becomes a Man ( a THINKER), and, a Thinker becomes a
> > GOD. Never is anything made less or lowered again." [The word "God"
used
> > here means a Thinker who can understand everything in the Universe - a
> > Prophet or a Wise Man - is a "Son of 'God.'" Basically we ae all sons
and
> > daughters of God -- the ONE UNIVERSAL SPIRIT -- ATMAN.
> >
> > All progress is forward and upward and eventually we learn and know
> > everything.
> >
> >
> > 1. REINCARNATION is the process by which all beings advance. The
> > forms constantly change. The Spirit that is within and behind the forms
> we
> > wear, and creates them, it NEVER DIES. We do NOT "die."
> >
> > 2. Sleep is death. Death is sleep. The CONSCIOUSNESS of each
> > individual always survives. The fear of "death" is abolished.
> >
> > 3. The Law Of Spiritual Development is through BROTHERHOOD. It
is
> > mutual help and is always cooperative. It views Humanity and all beings
> as
> > a single family. Wisdom is the ability to understand law operating
> > everywhere in a moral and altruistic fashion
> >
> > 4. MAN'S (a Thinker) DUTY is to help all others.
> >
> >
> > Added all together, these are 7 of the principal points of Theosophical
> and
> > universal science, and in all true philosophies.
> >
> > Think about them. Try to see if they are true. Ask all the questions
you
> > want.
> >
> > If you wish to study Theosophical propositions in greater detail, I
> suggest
> > you start with a simple text book like
> >
> > The KEY TO THEOSOPHY (by H P B) (an Introduction to Theosophical
> > doctrines and the ethics of Theosophy to be applied - 300 pages), or
> >
> > Mr. Judge's The OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY, ( a summary of The SECRET
> > DOCTRINE -- which is a book that covers the history of Cosmic evolution
> and
> > that of our Earth and humanity - as a host of spiritual beings all
working
> > and living together for millions of years - 180 pages).
> >
> > These are available for downloading from http://www.blavatsky.net and
> > http://www.ult-la.org .
> >
> > ==============================
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Morten
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 4:28 PM
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Pedro on "ORIGINAL TEACHINGS"
> >
> > Hallo all,
> >
> > My views are:
> >
> > May I drop a few words...?
> >
> > The following always comes to my mind, when someone almost says, that
one
> > shouldn't read certain books.
> >
> > The Key to theosophy, section 2:
> >
> > "We cull the good we find in each". I.e. each teaching system or thought
> > system.
> >
> > A vital issue is the present day teachers within the various
theosophical
> > groups.
> >
> > The only thing I will say is: You shall know them on their fruits.
> >
> > Do they support theosophical teaching or do they just say, that they do
> so?
> >
> > Do they enhance the teaching or is it just old business as usual
teaching?
> >
> > Do they promote a main teaching which is misleading - theosophically
> > speaking?
> >
> > Is their teaching something you just as well could have read in a book
> > yourselves?
> >
> > Do they teach each person in a group individually? If not what are the
> > concequences of this?
> >
> > -------
> >
> > Let us remember, that the theosophical teachings always adapts
themselves
> to
> > time, place, people and circumstances.
> >
> > It is not the dead-letter of the teacher which are important, but the
> fruits
> > the teacher creates by the teaching.
> >
> > The seekers suffers often from problems related to egotism. This the
> > teachers has to relate to.
> >
> > CUT
> >
> >
> > ---
> > You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: global-theosophy@a...
> > List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l
> > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-56348C@l...
> >
> >
> > ---
> > You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: dalval14@e...
> > List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l
> > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-56348C@l...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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