Theos-Talk Archives (August 2004 Message tt00117)

Aug 8 2004

RE: The three "I" s --

Dear Tony,

Sorry for being obscure. The quote marks I used there did not refer to any
theosophical source or text. I used them for emphasis on a particular aspect
of mental activity. Actually three, as I see them, looking within.

I used the designation "Mind 1," Mind 2," and "Mind 3" just for that letter
-- I was trying to keep the 3 "minds" separate for that particular
correspondent only.

Being technical I could have said just as you suggest,

"Mind 1" = The Monad (ATMA BUDDHI-MANAS)  
["Atma" in man is, I believe, the HIGHER SELF, and is also called a "ray"
of the ONE UNIVERSAL SPIRIT ATMAN]

"Mind 2" = The Buddhi-Manas = HIGHER MIND  

"Mind 3" = The Kama-Manas = LOWER MIND  

I was not sure my correspondent knew these technical terms, so I tried to
describe the mental / emotional dichotomy, and close inter-relation
situation in terms he suggested in his post. 

I agree that all mental conditions have at root the UNIVERSAL MIND.
And of course I grasp (at least, I think I do !) the meaning of the quotes
from the SECRET DOCTRINE -- and so: Thank You.

Being "absorbed" at the end of the Great cycle, as I understand it, from HPB
(ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISISHTADWAITA) does not mean erasure, abolition, or
elimination -- only rest -- possibly, without loss of individual
consciousness (?) and then, on the return of the Great Manvantara of cyclic
evolutionary activity -- an emergence (?) as an active assistant, in the
role of one of the many spiritual "cosmocratores (?)" re-generators, etc,.
and --- well that is only guessing. [ S D II 232]

Yes there has been a great debate for years over Monadic "permanency."  
The qualification "immortal" has been juggled.  

Does it mean eternity-ETERNITY ? Or is it only sempiternity? I still say it
is utterly futile and illogical (at least for me) for a Pralaya of any
extent to totally erase any vestige of the great work done with or without
"devotion" by so many uncountable beings. I am convinced nothing in Nature
is so totally "Mayavic" as to be scrubbed. The evidence we have of all this
work, and our interior evidence of perfection as a "goal," denies final
futility. I think MAYA has been misunderstood. Does not the "circle dance"
and the Zodiacal round of divisions indicate the cycles and Karma are
(within the frame work of the slow moving stars of eternity {our time} --
indicate clock on which events may be expected to "return?" ) Even
Zodiacal "time" is impermanent and slowly changing. Te few references HPB
makes to that and to ancient monuments and sub-dials and circles indicates
that for our purposes "permanency" is relative. So what is "Permanent" among
the continually shifting UNIVERSE ?

I see two extremes: The all-enveloping UNIVERSE (NATURE -- "God" to some)
and the INDIVIDUALITY as a MONAD ( Atma-Buddhi-Manas) 

In between there is continual vortical motion and "measured time." Makes me
think of the "corrections" that space navigators impose, using radio-waves
millions of miles away, on their guided missiles, capsules and probes. And
that is only on the physical plane -- the field of "Western occultism." 

Yes, the physical forms change constantly. (Maya) So? "WE" are still here.


So, change is also for the emotions, and the Lower Mind which is swayed by
them. Therefore, control of these, by the innate, internal ATMA -- the
"Permanent and Everlasting" -- of the "Impermanent" is in order -- but, it
has to work through the MIND --- and that needs reorganization. That I
believe, is why the symbol of the "Path" is employed -- it also does not
stop, but it is a direction to be selected, and it is also said that it has
been carved by "Many Buddhas of Perfection." ) The course and aim of the
"path" is said to be inward, to the HIGHER SELF.

The astral forms change more slowly than the physical; the "life currents,"
(as Jiva) to me, relate more to the fundamental basis and cause of existence
-- as reflected into our world of individualism and impermanency. 

Yet, if we also consider the chaos existing in our psychic nature (without
mind to aid and abet), their continual movement can be organized, and their
drift stopped (specially of the emotions, passions and desires) -- and the
Lower Mind can be made to coincide for its own 'good' with the Higher Mind
-- and then the purposeful advance of the Higher-Mind-Being can be made
into a majestic venture. The principle of 'pupil-teacher' begins to
operate, and assistance is mandatorily extended to others who need and ask.
This is (as I see it) the whole reason for THEOSOPHY and its "occultism,"
and the "esoteric philosophy." 

It would be interesting to go slowly through the SECRET DOCTRINE, ISIS
UNVEILED, and HPB articles and extract all the statements in which it says:
"occultism teaches," and the "esoteric philosophy says." I have done only a
small portion of that -- and time runs out. But its in the mind anyway --
Devachan ought to be fun!

Looking closely at the whole of the SECRET DOCTRINE, I get the "feeling"
that the MONAD, as described, once it emerges as a "pilgrim" from the
"monadic essence," [ S D I 126, 178-9, 619-20], proceeds to individually
continue that pilgrimage indefinitely. (When did the "monadic essence"
begin?)  

I would say that measured "time" (as we know it on this little earth) does
not apply in these matters, except for the "aggregates" -- or the "monads of
lesser experience."  

Aside:
{Looking at the "aggregates or skandhas," I ask myself: if taken one by one,
is not each one of them a Monad ? 

What is the significance of aggregation, and forming, by affinity, a "group"
around a more advanced Monad? -- here again we have movement and adjustment
proceeding -- so is that also a "Maya?" If so, it has a great reason and
purpose -- but it is still centered on ONE. We assume That is SPIRITUAL and
UNDYING, or PERMANENT.} 

What happens to the "monads" that don't make the grade, and "fail" at the
final stage of the "Moment Of Choice?" Don't they come again (new
Manvantara) and redo the experience and growth through self-effort? If
there are "returning Nirvanees" [S D II 78-80, 94, 232] -- then -- ?  

Finally, how does a very finite mind deal with infinite powers, events,
existence and individualities. With plenty of caution ! But what's a mind
for unless to think widely and deeply? Ravings ? Well, to some it will seem
so. 

What is the UNIVERSAL MIND ? Is it not a "Super-Aggregate" of Very
Experienced MEN --MAHATMAS AND MAHA-CHOHANS, BUDDHAS, etc...
In fact is it not the Universe? H P B in one place says that the Universe
acts as a "brain" for the Universal Mind. [PSYCHIC AND NOETIC ACTION ]

And why should we worry about that aspect of the teachings, unless it is to
assure ourselves mentally, and by irrefutable logic, that there are no links
in the endless chain that are neglected The small Nidana and the Great are
interdependent. The ultimate foundation is the inscrutable ABSOLUTE. So the
7 steps of "principles" human and cosmic are needed to explain the main
divisions of this intricate working complexity. [ S D I 157, II 596] 

As I see it, there comes at every stage of advance a moment when the Monad
and its envelope of skandhas (aggregates) has for those "aggregates" a
"Moment of Choice." HPB makes it plain (as I read it and think it over in S
D I 174-5 Fn. ) that the MONAD remains forever free. A paradox. Sounds
in some ways as though we were continually treading on quick-sand. Oh!
where is stability, even temporary certainty, of being true and real? I
guess the ability to say "I" is one proof of this question -- and the other
is the Universe, near and far. 

Does this make sense? Any help -- I mean for me?

Best wishes,

Dallas
 
================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony [mailto:alpha@dircon.co.uk] 
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 2:39 AM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: From: H.P. Lovecraft

Dear Dallas

<<<Theosophy calls I (Mind 1) a "ray of the Universal Spirit." It adds that
the whole proces of life is a succession of many lives and advocated
reincarnation as a reasonable fact.>>>

As interesting as what you say sounds, you didn't give the reference to
where Theosophy says Mind 1 is a "ray of the Universal Spirit." (you put it
in quotes) Did you mean to say "a ray of the Universal Mind?"

In the PROEM pages 16/17 2nd Fundamental Proposition footnote: 

" "Pilgrim" is the appellation given to our Monad (the two in one) during
its cycle of incarnations. It is the only immortal and eternal principle in
us, being an
indivisible part of the integral whole -- the Universal Spirit, from which
it emanates, and into which it is absorbed at the end of the cycle. When it
is said to emanate from the one spirit, an awkward and incorrect expression
has to be used, for lack of appropriate words in English. The Vedantins call
it Sutratma (Thread-Soul), but their explanation, too, differs somewhat from
that of the occultists; to explain which difference, however, is left to the
Vedantins themselves."

Above this at the end of the 1st Fundamental Proposition:


"The following summary will afford a clearer idea to the reader. . .

(3.) Spirit-matter, LIFE; the "Spirit of the Universe," the Purusha and
Prakriti, or the second Logos.

(4.) Cosmic Ideation, MAHAT or Intelligence, the Universal World-Soul; the
Cosmic Noumenon of Matter, the basis of the intelligent operations in and of
Nature, also called MAHA-BUDDHI.

The ONE REALITY; its dual aspects in the conditioned Universe."


Would the first "I" collate with MAHA-BUDDHI?

and is it PERMANENT or "PERMANENT"? (relatively PERMANENT), thinking of when
it is absorbed at the end of the cycle.

Best wishes
Tony