Theos-Talk Archives (July 2004 Message tt00385)

July 26 2004


Dear Nigel:

I was struck by the points you make and which are well taken. Thanks.

Yes it is not a question of our "opinions" but of "facts."

How to define or distinguish between: "Truth," "Law," and "Facts /"

Now, every day, there are arguments as to the nature, and or, the acceptance
of "facts." This can lead to "belief, and in most cases it is the result of
ignorance or adopting without due check up of unsubstantiated claims being
made.  

How can we verify? How can we assure ourselves of "facts," and what weight
shall we place on "testimony?" [At the conclusion of her "Introductory" to
the SECRET DOCTRINE, Vol. 1, pp. xlvi-xlvii, HPB gives a reference to the
mathematical determination of verity that may emerge form testimony. It is
good, I think, to examine this.] 

As to "Law," I would say that the World, our Universe, and Ourselves, the
whole of science, philosophy and life depend on certain definite and
intransgressible Laws. Why are they so difficult to find? Why do we "shy
away" from them? Are they not always mutually supportive, inter-harmonious
and cooperative? 
Don't they, in their ever-present cooperation, support and give us life? Do
we worry about that at all?

How can "belief" be made to transcend "opinion?" 

I would say that only in the realm of logic and reason, and, in metaphysics
or mathematics this can be done. But even there, I expect, there will
differences of view.  

At the end of this paper I reproduce your comments, and there I have placed
some direct opinions for you to consider, if you will. Here are some
generalities.

How can we make those ideas appear as invulnerable FACTS to all? I do not
believe we can do this for anyone but ones' self. Yet, we can present our
reasoning and views to others for them to consider and check with their own
experience. 

Would you not say that those which cover the widest area of space and the
longest periods of time, and, remain invariable, are to be chosen? May they
for brevity be called "universals?"

How else shall we label them?

At best they are abstractions, yet I have found them, when kept at the back
of my mind while doing the ordinary things of life, helpful to me -- in
fact, I would go so far as to say: very necessary for any ones' existence
and "peace of mind," and it is (for me) a necessity for progress and a
hoped for ultimate (?) 'success.'

Here they are for consideration: - a series of phrases and ideas:


1.	DURATION -- (TIME, but indefinite, extensive, inclusive of any and
all finite time periods, however brief or long; eternity, no "death;" not to
be defined by a finite mind -- unlimited time -- reincarnation of the
human Soul is a matter requiring this function; just as a "change of
polarity" (from activity when awake to rest and reflection in the dream
states) as in sleep, refreshes us between each day's activates, --?)	


2.	SPACE -- (without walls, unlimited, infinite, indivisible,
irreplaceable, has "centers everywhere," but no finite circumferences can be
found, has no specific properties as it includes all such distinctions; not
to be defined by any finite mind, and isn't there a form of calculus that
envisages a range from ZERO to INFINITY ? -- ?)


3.	MOTION -- (universal LAW, the eternal harmony of discords, the
immutable and intransgressible "wholeness" of the many Laws of Nature; in
matter this is never ceasing gyratory, vortical, vibrating, linear and
circular movement; no 'dead' or motionless place; both matter and forces
may be projected, transported, or transformed, but never may they be
completely exhausted or obliterated. [Example: to perceive any "motion"
there has to be an observer occupying a relatively stable condition, and
able to make measurements of change, but, in this case the ultimate starting
point (as well as its point of final movement) is not to be found or
determined, and, there is some selected object that moves, -- ?)


4.	SPIRIT -- (that which is perfected, complete, excellent, wise,
knows all and harmonizes all without itself being involved as it is always
aloof, universally present, (omnipresent,) contains all "Spirits and Forms,"
but obliterates or overwhelms none, it implies that every "part of the
Universe," such as a "life-atom," or monad, has an equal opportunity to
eventually rise to the highest possible position in that Universe --
resulting from the mastery of all laws and phenomena, but regulated by a
realization that all beings are of the same essence though differing
presently in degree of advancement, compassion, harmony, instruction are
assumed as the duties of such Mind Beings, in the infinite Universe there
are ample areas where such Wisdom is needed to guide and assist local
evolutionary efforts -- ?)


5.	MATTER, SUBSTANCE -- (any limits making a 'form' of any matter or
substance, whether on the material tangible plane, or any of its many
correlates as mental images, powers, forces, fields of radiation and
magnetic or electrical conditions, coherence, repulsion, etc, (any limits
making a 'form' of any matter, radiation, field, or substance, whether on
the material tangible plane or any of its many correlates as powers, forces,
fields, magnetic or electrical conditions, [For example: the evolving
Monad is partly "matter," the other half being Spirit, and these two
intertwined are united by consciousness intelligence, or Mind, Buddhi or
Maha-Buddhi and Mulaprakriti, are the highest, most refined aspect of
"matter," -- ?)


6.	MIND -- (consciousness, intelligence, memory of all events,
capable of anticipation of all probabilities, reason, logic, mathematics,
perception, grasp of Laws which can be perceived in operation as analogies
and correspondences, similarities and disparities, has a unitary basis but
also is self-reflective, it recognizes it is only "One among Many," each and
all (as brothers) having similar potentials and capabilities, knows all
events past and present, and is able to determine the future of itself as
well as that of any object or subject, as a consequence of the operation of
immutable and never failing Laws, an act of Law, omniscience, as such it is
Mahat, the Universal Mind, which is eternally united to ATMA and to BUDDHI
-- making the triune UNIVERSAL MONAD in manifestation, -- ?)


7.	MONAD (a term used to designate the immortal brothers -- the
uncountable "life-atoms" that fill SPACE to its entirety, they may be
dualities as [ATMA-BUDDHI] during Pralaya, and trinities as
[ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS] during Manvantara, they are immortal and exist
eternally, each carries the imperishable record of all its experiences, and
is therefore Karma to itself, in a human it is called the Divine Self,
impersonal, yet universally conscious, and eternally thinking, it is the
"god-within" every being, and may be used to designate any form, from "atom"
to "Galaxy," all EVOLUTION proceeds in, through and around it, and its
countless collaborative "brothers," -- ?)


8.	CAUSE -- (An ultimate cause cannot be determined, yet every "form"
has a chain of causation attached to it -- as its particular "past;" all
such "chains" vanish into the infinitude regression of time, and, when
projected forward has no conceivable cessation; the term "Causeless Cause"
has been used in this regard, omnipotence, eternally creative and
innovative, -- ?)


9.	COMPASSION (the law of all Laws, Brotherhood, generosity, sharing --
in all practical and possible actions (mental, emotional, physical), a
recognition of the identical potentials present in all "forms," the constant
and careful practice of all virtues, such being the Laws of Nature as viewed
from the point of universal and impersonal ethics, --?)


10.	EXISTENCE -- (a conditioned "Oneness," a force or causative,
creative power, an "atmosphere" surrounding and supporting the formation of
any object, rather than any form or substance, has permanence while the
forms it employs continually alter and change in time and space, a sense of
immortality is its one preeminent quality, -- ?)


11	GOAL (Perfection of all faculties and "atomic-forms" (monads) used,
attaining to "All-Knowingness," yet this is not isolation, or tyranny -- ?)


12.	WILL (a resistless force inherent in Spirit, that when set into
motion, selects, and determines how any constraint, analysis, or discipline
shall be applied (in time and space) to a subject chosen for change or
amelioration, -- ?)


These to me appear to be basic factors in our universe and ourselves as part
of that Universe -- when viewed as a living, spiritual entity and Unity, it
may be called the CENTRAL SPIRITUAL SUN. 

Dallas
 
=======================================

SEE COMMENTS MADE BY DTB BELOW

-----Original Message-----
From: theosacademy
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 2:50 AM
To: 
Subject: The requirement for comparison?


N	As is so often the case with contentious issues, polarization
rapidly 
occurs. 

========================================

DTB	As I see it:  

All "dualities" are based on UNITY. The primordial Unity may 'retreat'
from, or be separated by a difference of state from its "children"
dualities. But it is not destroyed by this event. It remains as a final
repository of all Monads when "Manvantara" (or the evolutionary period)
ends. Thereto and therein every Monad will find its appropriate place and
refuge - and there slumber or meditate - till a new Manvantara opens and a
fresh "day" of activity and pilgrimage reopens for it and all its brothers.

The existence of dualities, or any aggregation of any and all 'numbers,'
does not obliterate or change the original nature of the undefinable One
Source: UNITY.

It (as WHOLENESS) may be considered to remain as an inclusive "background."
But it is not to be eliminated from any or all consideration. Ideally it is
three-fold (but this is only conceptual): as these are undefinable and
inalienable coexistent 'parts' of ITSELF - these may be tentatively
expressed as : -- REALITY, LAW, and POTENTIALITY. From these are derived
the Three Fundamental Propositions [ GOD -- LAW -- BEINGS ] of the S D (
S D Vol. I, pp., 13-19 ). These trinities by correspondence and analogy,
are to be found reflected in every one of the evolving Monads, which are
then called: ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS [or SPIRIT - WISDOM - MIND as units]. Here
arises a paradox: one finds UNITY and TRIUNENESS inextricably intertwined.
These taken all together are the Sacred FOUR or the Tetraktys. In physical
nature, any 4 points when joined by straight lines give the first solid
figure: a three-sided pyramid on a triangular base.  

On the plane of manifestation, for instance, the ABSOLUTE (background)
having through eternal Karmic Law, brought back into existence (as aspects
of Itself) the whole of "manifestation" which had been "slumbering in
Pralaya," retires.  

Each of these "aspects" [Monads], of necessity, mirrors the ABSOLUTE from
which it is derived and in which perpetually contains it. Hence every Monad
affects every other, and has the same potentials and objectives as the rest.
>From this basic concept the phrase "The Brotherhood of Humanity" is derived,
as simultaneously an ideal and a concept to be made practical in daily life.
In another way of thinking this is the basis for all Karma -- a definition
of the continuing relationship of all "monads" [the SPIRITUAL SELF[ to their
brother-monads. 

In Manifestation or Manvantara the great and universally pervasive Pair:
the "Opposites," named: -- SPIRIT : MATTER are reestablished as "polar
ideals." 

Illimitable SPACE is filled with MONADS [ATMA-BUDDHI s] of every
description and status, all cooperative, all with equal powers, as eternal
"brothers." These are reanimated, each in its appropriate place and
relationship, with all the rest. 

To bridge the gap between the perfection of SPIRIT and the isolation of
MATTER, Universal MIND (or MAHAT) reassumes its eternal, mediatory
position, everywhere.  

ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS is the triune Monad in evolution. To each Monadic entity
(an Eternal Pilgrim), other monads of "lesser experience" attach themselves
-- thus forming the "aggregates" (or "skandhas") [see SECRET DOCTRINE I,
174-5fn]. These latter are self-imprinted with the forces it used in its
past thought, will and feeling (emotion, passion, desire, etc... ). This is
the trail of Karma attached to each Monad. [Since, we are such a Monad, we
each have our own "trail of (good and bad ) karma. And we are bonded to
others who have been affected by our decisions and acts.]

=============================

N	We draw our lines in the sand and call upon all our resources to win

our point. We have at our disposal historical events, putative 
eyewitness accounts, apparently indisputable evidence of one kind or 
another. 

And how else are we to proceed? 

The nature of mind and emotion is dual, the nature of Truth we are 
told, One. 

Does Truth devalue and dismiss the discerning process or is there 
legitimacy in comparison?

======================================

DTB	I would say that Truth always emphasizes and enhances our
"discerning process" because it offers an impartial "binocular vision" -- a
more stable background of universal law, experience and wisdom -- on which
we can draw, using our memory and power of logical, rational thinking.

Comparison is a most valuable capacity, but we have to remain detached fro
our emotional responses -- in the nature of "I like this, or I don't like
that." Seeking for the LAWS is the way I would recommend. 

In our world you cannot eliminate three things:

1	Yourself as a percipient Self.
2	Our world and common environment -- call it the UNIVERSE.
3	An unbroken stream of mutual relations that ever flow between these
two from the distant past and so on into the future. What do we desire?
Friends or Enemies in the Future?

The ability to make comparisons using the imagination is essential providing
we are able to impersonalize it. Say: "If someone else was there in those
circumstance what would be the ideal way to act? Then elect to do that,
regardless of how we may "feel" about it. 

The tendency of all feelings/emotions is to be selfish and if we carry our
those inclinations to their rational conclusion we will probably find they
are short term and self-serving choices and goals. 

Imagination?: This is a marvelous and most useful capacity of our mind --
we all have it. Our jurisprudence is written and based on this. So too, is
every aspect of communal and family life, and the universal ethos of all
human relationships. It is brotherhood and the "Golden Rule:" "Do unto all
others (in private as well as in public) as you would desire them to deal
with you." 

In a way we could say that regardless of name used there is in fact ONE GOD,
and everyone worships and respects IT. If there are any differences, it is
mankind through sects, creeds and sly priest-craft misrepresentations, that
have made them, and thus degraded true Religion everywhere -- [which means
"to bind together"]. What else than Truth does any permanent bonding?

=======================================

N	If comparison and choice are unavoidable in daily life then perhaps 
this process is as intended in the Cosmic scheme. Perhaps this aspect 
of the scheme is intended to be an approach to Truth. Without 
comparison, do we not run the risk of absolutism with its attendant 
traps of separation, antagonism and conflict?

==================================

DTB	Our mental capacities are able to include impersonality because
basically, the relation we have as "mind-beings" is and will always be
direct with and to the ABSOLUTE -- and to our interior "God" -- the ATMA.

The bifocal capacity we have mentally, gives assurance not only of ideals
but of their practical application being in our reach demand -- some call
intuition, but every intuition we think we have secured, has to be checked
with logic, to make sure it is not a 'will o the wisp' suggested by delusive
and fanciful desires. Further we have historical examples of this capacity
put into practical life and action: in individuals, whose life and example
we can all revere, such as Jesus, Buddha, Krishna.

============================

N	Should we humans be permitted to compare, discern and ultimately 
decide without receiving hostility and derision from others? If 
sacred cows are known or discovered to be less than sacred, should 
their defenders descend into name-calling, sarcasm or mockery? Or 
can we make use of our comparative mind to further discern the 
illusive nature of Truth? 

==================================

DTB	We do the comparison thing all the time. 

As I see it: TRUTH is NOT illusive, but our selfish motives try to escape
close analysis forever. 

They desire us to "bell the cat" for temporary (not long-term) advantages
and they hide their wicked nature -- it is self-destructive -- and that
demands from us extreme caution. 

Fortunately the Mind we have is the true Ruler of all our desires. All we
need to do is to carry out logically some proposed fancy that is
self-serving and selfish to its logical conclusion and see if we could (in
such a scenario) really profited from it?  

Our main problem is we are unsure of our Spiritual SELF as a REAL EXISTENCE,
and of its reincarnation.  

We are also uncertain about Law. Is it immutable and uniform in nature?
Are there such beings as "gods" who can break Law with impunity and "favor"
us? Dom prayers, praise and petitions work? Sometimes? Then, why not all
the time? Why should we trust priests who conceal any approach to God but
through their rites, ceremonies and fees? Can they produce any evidence?
Who has returned from Heaven or Hell recently -- so as to give personal,
positive photographs, tapes, (?) (or any) testimony to their presence? And
where are these places located? Are they physical or metaphysical? And if
God is "all-powerful" then why are "heathens" not all destroyed at once for
their heresies? 

Perhaps it is wise to be a heretic -- a god skeptic.

Truth can always be explained to the enquiring mind that is unprejudiced.
Theosophy, by its self-definition, as a science, a philosophy and a
"religion," -- by its very own nature encourages all free and unlimited
inquiry into such things, so as to enable every person at their will and
desire, to discover verities and more proofs as to their probability.

==================================


N	Doesn't the Theosophical journey concern the search for truth which 
ultimately leads to Truth? 

DTB	YES


N	And if truth is significant then aren't we looking for wherever it 
may appear? 

DTB	YES



N	And where we clearly discern a number of untruths, might this not be

valuable for our chosen future direction? 

==============================

DTB	IT WILL It is a growing-up proces as we are, as humans, all of us:
"Mind-Beings."  

We have to teach ourselves to think -- while recording and verifying all
stable expositions of Fact, Law and Events.  

We have to do the work for ourselves -- as in the case of our accepting
other's testimony and claims -- that merely perpetuates the state of "blind
credulity and belief." We grow no wiser and we remain unsure.

Jesus said in one place: "Know ye not ye are Gods?" [John 10 : 34-5]
The Buddha said: "Look inward, Thou are Buddha." And we find Krishna
exclaiming: "I (the Supreme Spirit) am seated in the heart of all beings." 

============================

N	Or are we to dismiss truth as unimportant, insignificant, valueless?

If so, how do we determine credibility within ourselves? How do we 
gauge that which is real and meaningful to us? 

==================================

DTB	Test it always. Accept any statement only on a cautionary basis,
and subject to intense analysis.

Can you' frame a few rules on learning how to think? I would like t have
them as we can all profit from a review of this capacity. How else can we
make use of our minds?

==============================

N	Do we become merely pragmatic for the sake of the status quo? 

==============================

DTB Wow -- roll with the ship and be tossed by the tides and waves.
Somehow I would say NO. I think judicious rebellion is necessary.  

But who rebels about what? Who am I to rebel? What in me is revolted? And
what am I gong to do with any result I discover? 

But first we need those rules on thinking. -- I think I am going to offer
some basic ideas I have been gathering -- attached to this for you to look
at -- these are just outlines of ideas.

============================

N	Do we deny an opportunity for Harmony for the sake of harmony? 

===============================

DTB	What and where is there such ideal Harmony? Is there an Eden on
Earth left some where? Does retirement give us a good answer? What abut all
those who are not in it? Who helps them? Should the be helped? Helped
with what? Knowledge?  

Do they have to do such work (or at least part of it) for themselves? Of
what use is help unless it draws in the recipient, so as to make him/her a
part of the recovery program? How does one establish the best disciplines
for this attempt?

=============================

N	In such cases does fear, under the guise of an assumed requirement 
for stability and permanence, exclude Truth?

================================

DTB	Now that is quite an "assumption." Who resents virtue? Who resents
brotherhood and being treated as family? Who fears sharing their lives? And
WHY ?

Unless we can answer this accurately we will always be plagued by doubts. 

Lets look at some positives. Or environment supports our living up to now.
We really do little to assist and improve our bodies -- The body breathes,
drinks, eats, sleeps, repairs itself and few of us know exactly what is
going on simultaneously all over and inside it.  

In fact we might look on our own physical bodies as miniature universes with
trillions of atoms, molecules, cells, etc.. all interacting harmoniously
together inspite of their disparate natures to give us (as a thinking and
feeling entity) a residence We are tenants and very ignorant ones. 

To add to the situation we have to learn how to behave agreeably to our
community and environment. Lots to learn. Does one life suffice? Theosophy
says NO -- we reincarnate. But it is plain there are two lines of life
inter-joined in evolution here: that of the body as an entity, and that of
a Soul/Mind as its inhabitant. How do we learn to handle them both, because
the REAL WE is still something else. Now that is a very large order of
business.

We have more than gliding and slipping through communal life to worry about
and to learn to handle.

To me fear" always implies ignorance. If we know we don't fear. But
knowledge also installs caution, especially when we know we are in dangerous
circumstances. Being foolhardy is not the best road to wisdom. 

If we are in the present fact ignorant, then can we find someone to whom we
can ask questions?

So, as I see it, first we need to know where we are, and what the
surroundings and prospects are. Then we ought to ask why our Karma brought
us here, and thirdly, what should we best do in the present case Stay and
help, run away?

If we have already acquired Truth (in general) and a good process of
"thinking available in our minds," established there as a usable "staff,"
then why not apply it?   

Do we have time to consider? Under what constraints are we placed? Can we
secure inner or outer help from those wiser than we? Can we ask our
neighbours for help in our circumstances? Many avenues of consideration,
accumulation of advice and then we elect to act -- and here Theosophy
recommends we adopt the most universally reasonable way -- something that
another person would do to obtain optimum results. The life of one who
desires to be impersonal and of true assistance is never "easy."

I ask you for should anyone exclude Truth? Sounds like "throwing the baby
out with the bath-water."   

Just how long a "permanence and stability" are you looking for? A church, a
monastery, a [place where you are made an automaton subject to whimsical
doctrines and disciplines? Is that happiness and bliss? 

Some think that if they are indeed in a Universe that is regulated by LAWS,
and that their personality (likes and dislikes) is threatened by being
straight-jacketed by a morality of sticky virtues they are unable to
understand or control, they had better get out of it. I wonder why? One
needs to "take a breather" and sort these things out in stacks of
importance. So getting organized is I think our first task, and putting what
we do know and what we don't know into parallel columns helps. The mind and
feeling stop whirling. Then we can proceed to both metaphysical and
practical details.

The best book I know of on thinking is PATANJALI'S YOGA SUTRAS. I can send
you a copy -- and, if you prefer I can send it electronically --it is not
long.

The rest is largely one's own method of doing things -- and if you think our
lives are "straight jacketed" by laws and regulations, karma, reincarnation,
learning ore things abut ourselves and the world, becoming wise, and
avoiding all kinds of errors you are right, we are going to be very people
for a surprisingly long time before we get everything straightened out. So
lets go ahead together, as two are better than one, alone and solitary.
Companionship is everything in an endeavor such as we are all engaged in. 

Best wishes,

Dallas


=====================================

Nigel