Theos-Talk Archives (June 2004 Message tt00139)

Bart, you wrote:

"All I can do is point out more likely possibilities. 
But, without solid proof, and probably even with it, 
you are not going to believe it anyway. So why should 
I spend the hours it would take to answer your questions?"

Well, first of all I thought Theos-Talk was a discussion 
forum where we share ideas, opinions and information.
Also I am not the only subscriber to this forum and I
assume others on this forum would be interested in
what you have to say. 

Whether I would believe it or not, I can't say and 
is in fact not relevant. I try to understand other 
points of view and I try to think thru the issues for myself. 

You either feel that your ideas have merit and you
want to share them or you don't.

Maybe, just maybe, somebody here on Theos-Talk might
find something of interest in what you write or might
gain some kind of insight as to your point of view
or into the underlying issues.

Again I don't think it would take hours to answer the
questions even if you gave more details than you usually
do.

So I again repeat the 2 questions unanswered:

========================================================

Are there ANY of HPB's phenomena that you think were genuine?

And if Blavatsky produced fake phenomena, then do you believe
she also faked the appearances of her Masters?

=======================================================

Bart, a simple yes or no would at least let readers know something
about your thinking but the more details you give, the
more insight you give as to your thinking process, issues
you think are important, etc.

I also repeat below the 3 examples of encounters with
the Masters and also my closing comments on the belief
system of Randi.

=========================================================

Take [or consider] this encounter given by Olcott:

"The time came when I was blessed with a visit from one of these
Mahatmas in my own room at New York - a visit from him, not in the
physical body, but in the "double," or Mayavi-rupa. When I asked him
to leave me some tangible evidence that I had not been the dupe of a
vision, but that he had indeed been there, he removed from his head
the puggri [turban] he wore, and giving it to me, vanished from my
sight. That cloth I have still, and in one corner is marked in thread
the cipher or signature he always attaches to the notes he writes to
myself and others."

Or this encounter by Damodar:

"He [Master Morya] held and put His hands twice over Mme. B.'s
head.
She then stretched out her hand which passed through His - a fact
proving that what we saw was a Mayavi Rupa, although so vivid and
clear as to give one the impression of a material physical body. She
immediately took the letter from His hands. It crumpled, as it were,
and made a sound. He then waved His hands towards us, walked a few
steps, inaudibly and imperceptibly as before, and disappeared!"

Just a magic trick???

Or this one by Casava Pillai:

"That very night while I was going to bed in Col. Olcott's room, with
all doors closed, and in good lamp light, I was startled to see
coming out, as it were, of the solid wall, the astral form of my most
revered Guru Deva, and I prostrated before him, and he blessed me and
desired me to go and see him beyond the Himalayas, in good Telugu
language. The conversation that passed between us is too sacred to be
mentioned here. He disappeared in the same way as he appeared."

Now I have a pretty good hunch about what the Amazing Randi would say
about these encounters.

What do you say as a Theosophist?

The Amazing Randi never saw a psychic phenomenon that he didn't think
wasn't ESP....that is, ERROR SOME PLACE. Some kind of magic trickery,
or hallucination or something else involving a PHYSICAL cause or
explanation.

>From everything I've read by Randi, he is what I would call a
materialist or physicalist....he doesn't believe in superphysical
worlds, subtle bodies, auras, out of body experiences, life after
death, etc. etc. Therefore it is understandable about his view of
psychic phenomena.

But I haven't the foggiest idea of your point of view.
=====================================================

Daniel