Theos-Talk Archives (June 2004 Message tt00117)

Bart, you wrote:

"I never said 'years before'; it could have 
been buried just a few days before. And it 
also could have been palmed, although I 
suspect that it was planted before, especially 
considering that it was Blavatsky who
suggested (insisted on) the spot for the picnic."

So Bart .... WHO planted the cup and saucer??

Were HPB and Olcott out in the woods days before . . . 
planting the cup and saucer?

And if not them, how did Blavatsky know where it was located??
She somehow knew the EXACT spot. It is not like
she said dig here and nothing was found and then
she said oh well dig here and nothing again and then 
..... etc. etc.

And where did Blavatsky get this particular cup from??
Notice Olcott's description:

"and lo! a cup decorated in green and gold, exactly 
matching the others Mrs. Sinnett's servants had brought."

And notice Sinnett's additional remarks:

"Afterwards, when we got home, my
wife questioned our principal khitmutgar as to how
many cups and saucers of that particular kind we
possessed. In the progress of years, as the set was
an old set, some had been broken, but the man at once
said that nine teacups were left. When collected and
counted that number was found to be right, without
reckoning the excavated cup. That made ten, and as
regards the pattern, it was one of a somewhat peculiar
kind, bought a good many years previously in London,
and which assuredly could never have been matched
in Simla."

So where did Blavatsky get the 10th cup from????

It is quite easy for you to say Blavatsky planted the
cup but where did she get the cup from? Remember
it was not just any cup....

And how did Blavatsky deposit the cup and saucer?

"The gentleman with the knife [Major Philip Henderson]
tore up these in the first place with some difficulty,
as the roots were tough and closely interlaced. Cutting
then into the matted roots and earth with the knife, and
pulling away the debris with his hands, he came at
last, on the edge of something white, which turned out,
as it was completely excavated, to be the required cup.
A corresponding saucer was also found after a little
more digging. Both objects were in among the roots,
which spread everywhere through the ground, so that
it seemed as if the roots were growing round them."

"He found the ground hard and full of small roots of a young cedar 
tree near by. These he cut through and pulled up to a depth of say 6 
inches, when something white was seen in the black soil; it was dug 
out, and lo! a cup decorated in green and gold, exactly matching the 
others Mrs. Sinnett's servants had brought. Madame told the Major to 
dig more; he did so, and at last found a saucer to match the cup! 
They were imbedded in the ground like stones naturally there, and the 
cedar roots grew all around them like a net work, and one root as 
large as your little finger had to be cut away to get at the saucer."

A tunnel, you might say?

But Henderson and Mahmood went back a little later after the 
picnic and found no signs of a hole or tunnel. Surely there
would have been some sign, some evidence of a tunnel...but nothing 
was found.

Much more could be said about this one phenomenon....

So I assume you also believe HPB faked the diploma and the
water bottle phenomena at the same picnic and later that same day the 
brooch phenomenon.

And what about the brooch in the pillow?? Planted too???

Are there ANY of HPB's phenomena that you think were genuine?

And if Blavatsky produced fake phenomena, then do you believe
she also faked the appearances of her Masters?

Take this encounter given by Olcott:

"The time came when I was blessed with a visit from one of these 
Mahatmas in my own room at New York - a visit from him, not in the 
physical body, but in the "double," or Mayavi-rupa. When I asked him 
to leave me some tangible evidence that I had not been the dupe of a 
vision, but that he had indeed been there, he removed from his head 
the puggri [turban] he wore, and giving it to me, vanished from my 
sight. That cloth I have still, and in one corner is marked in thread 
the cipher or signature he always attaches to the notes he writes to 
myself and others."

Or this encounter by Damodar:

"He [Master Morya] held and put His hands twice over Mme. B.'s
head. 
She then stretched out her hand which passed through His - a fact 
proving that what we saw was a Mayavi Rupa, although so vivid and 
clear as to give one the impression of a material physical body. She 
immediately took the letter from His hands. It crumpled, as it were, 
and made a sound. He then waved His hands towards us, walked a few 
steps, inaudibly and imperceptibly as before, and disappeared!"

Just a magic trick???

Or this one by Casava Pillai:

"That very night while I was going to bed in Col. Olcott's room, with 
all doors closed, and in good lamp light, I was startled to see 
coming out, as it were, of the solid wall, the astral form of my most 
revered Guru Deva, and I prostrated before him, and he blessed me and 
desired me to go and see him beyond the Himalayas, in good Telugu 
language. The conversation that passed between us is too sacred to be 
mentioned here. He disappeared in the same way as he appeared."

Now I have a pretty good hunch about what the Amazing Randi would say 
about these encounters.

What do you say as a Theosophist?

The Amazing Randi never saw a psychic phenomenon that he didn't think
wasn't ESP....that is, ERROR SOME PLACE. Some kind of magic trickery,
or hallucination or something else involving a PHYSICAL cause or 
explanation.

>From everything I've read by Randi, he is what I would call a 
materialist or physicalist....he doesn't believe in superphysical 
worlds, subtle bodies, auras, out of body experiences, life after 
death, etc. etc. Therefore it is understandable about his view of 
psychic phenomena. 

But I haven't the foggiest idea of your point of view.

Daniel