Theos-Talk Archives (May 2004 Message tt00052)

Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Dear Tony:

I foretold this to you: This will lead to discussion, arguments
and open up points of divergence.

If unity is sought, then peace gives it. My refusal to fight or
to kill others in any event, is entirely my own decision. I
accept misunderstanding and also rejection. So be it. How can I
try to apply Theosophy without going the whole way?

Brotherhood is for all, not a selection.  

Killing proves nothing either to the perpetrator or to the one
who is killed, does it?

On the other hand there is the BHAGAVAD GITA and the arguments
for a righteous war. Arjuna was a Kshatriya and war was one of
his duties. 

And so it goes.

I give no support to tyranny or violence of any kind. And
certainly no support to tyrants. All I can offer is myself as an
"objector." And doing so might cost me my life, friends, and
other things --- So be it. I believe it cost Jesus His life? 
I continually ask myself: "What should a true follower of the
Christ do?"

But Jesus does not stand alone in history either as a "Man of
Peace."

In any case I can only speak for myself. Others are free to make
their own decisions. Generally I would say as a wise friend did:

"Never explain. Your friends don't need it. 
Your enemies won't believe you anyway."

Best wishes,


Dallas
 
=====================================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony [mailto:alpha@dircon.co.uk] 
Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 4:36 AM
To: study@blavatsky.net
Subject: [bn-study] RE: Theos-World Re: Divine Wind

Dear Dallas

I am certainly grateful to those who fought in World War II
against the Nazi
oppressors. Just to take the Nazi concentration camps and the
attempted
annihilation of the Jews, if the allies had not put up a
resistance, surely
that would have been an action in a deadly sin. Were the
Americans in your
view wrong to take action after Pearl Harbour? Were they wrong
to have the
battleships in the first place? Isn't the world in a situation
where it is
still a matter of the "survival of the fittest."

NOW

Imagine us having this conversation in a room together.
Unbeknown to us
there is a grumpy old Zen Master tromping around with one of
those thick
bamboos they carry. What is he going to do? I can feel it
coming hard
across the back of my head as I write. So what do we do?
Placate him with
a cup of tea? Would you dare? Anyway, who is this very old
Zen Master?
Do you want him barging in like this? Is it better he goes back
to sleep?

Is it possible to see it differently to how we are seeing it?
How would
the enlightened being be acting?

What is now left out of the 2nd object of "The Theosophical
Society" is the
word Aryan (even in the ULT version I think? --- where is that
bamboo?), but
it is quite likely the most important word in it?

In the Theosophical Glossary:

Aryasatyâni (Sk.). The four truths or the four dogmas, which are
(1) Dukha,
or that misery and pain are the unavoidable concomitants of
sentient
(esoterically, physical) existence; (2) Samudaya, the truism that
suffering
is intensified by human passions; (3) Nirôdha, that the crushing
out and
extinction of all such feelings are possible for a man “on the
path”; (4)
Mârga, the narrow way, or that path which leads to such a blessed
result.

Isn't this what the 2nd object is about? It appears, that
whether we are
having a great time by the Ocean watching the Sun going down, or
whether we
are on a battlefield, carrying out some act of mercy, it is all
in the realm
of suffering. It is just that we don't realise that having a
good time by
the Ocean is suffering. Can that be the case?

How does the man "on the path" see it?

How does the man on the narrow way act?

Tony


-----Original Message-----
From: Dallas TenBroeck [mailto:dalval14@earthlink.net]
Sent: 1 May 2004 1:11 pm
To: study@blavatsky.net
Subject: [bn-study] RE: Theos-World Re: Divine Wind


Saturday, May 01, 2004


Dear Tony:


I have no "fight" with deep, heat-felt patriotism.

Also I agree that "TRUTH hurts." But I would add: Only the
personal selfish fearful and cowardly physical man feels and
fears hurt.. The "Inner God" does not. For it is one with the
Universal God. Is this, oh, so difficult to grasp?

I do believe that reincarnation is a fact and in effect the
SPIRIT / SOUL has no "country" other than the world, and its
UNIVERSE. LAW embraces all. But, do we not, and can we not also
say: GOD is the UNIVERSE ?

As I see it: We are humans -- "minds under development" -- at
this stage and time. The Universe and our world is our "school."
Each incarnation is a "day" spent in learning. The end result is
a "divine man" at peace with all beings.

The immortal Mind-Soul has reincarnated for endless centuries,
aeons perhaps, in various places -- and the same basic (but
temporary - for a life-time) loyalties to family, community and
Nation (if any) not to mention "religion," are always in place.

It has always seemed to me that some aspects of these conditions,
from life to life, are temporary -- an overlay temporarily
derived from location, religion, education, era, country,
geography, and the pressures of family, and of those "societies"
-- into which we are successively born.

It might appall us to discover what our past has been [see, for
example, HPB's KARMIC VISIONS.] .

So, personally, I declare for peace and non-violence. It is my
choice. Likewise if I choose to oppose tyranny and violence
offered to the weak and the poor, I accept the karma for that.
Especially so, when such events are in front of me.

If injustice, tyranny, violence, etc., are seen in front of me,
I have to assume that I am karmically involved and must then
choose to act as best as I can. All choices of any kind are of
course my own. (Whether considered by others selfish or
unselfish.) Personally, I have always faced the oppressor and
demanded peace, and, have always done this not caring for
"consequences."

I have never felt comfortable with an attitude such as is now
inculcated on youth in most if not in every country (and I have
been educated in several, so I have seen this at first hand.) :
"My country, right or wrong."

Something lacks there. I sense (and I may be wrong) that the
"country" exerts a power (through legislation and
'peer-pressure') it has no right to: to tell me what to do, and
when to do it -- extending up to the level of killing, maiming
and thus torturing anonymous and unknown (possibly quite
innocent) persons, and subsequently, of placing their families in
unknown but dire circumstances. I ask myself: "Who profits from
such actions?" "Who thinks about such things?"

I realise that there can be endless argument over this -- as to
whether it is personal, impersonal, self-serving, cowardly,
theosophical, or not -- but I, for one, declare for the Buddha's
attitude: "Kill not for pity's sake unless ye stay the meanest
thing upon its upward way." And if this means self-immolation,
then so be it. Some of the JATAKA TALES will be found to
illustrate this.

I ask you (to emphasize my reasoning): Can you respect, honor
and obey anyone who would kill or torture, face to face, another?
Can one respect the "word of honor" of a robber, a thief, an
abductor, a molester, a brigand, etc...

They are where they are, and, as they are what they have made
themselves, because of hundreds of promises violated, any offer
of peace and mitigation of pain from such persons is questionable
-- they have NO HONOR and NO LOYALTY. Can they be trusted to
carry out their part of the bargain?

When cornered, or desirous of our compliance, they play upon our
sense of honor to achieve their desires -- regardless of any
outcome except benefit to themselves as they see it. And when
free, what do they then do ?

Now this is quite a declaration, and I can only hope to be
understood.

No I would not ask another to assume my burdens, or to stand in
danger on my behalf. But that is a decision that I refuse to
have made for me.

Best wishes,


Dallas

PS Also consider this pleae:

The world is round and, considered historically, political
boundaries today are as arbitrary as ever.

If we "return and reincarnate," then we can only say we rent a
living area, including a body, and also a family, and various
other responsibilities. Our sense of "ownership," of property,
home, pssessions, even a "family,":are often indefinite
responsibilities and duties, since death severs all such
questions. These are the varous ways thorgh which Karma (the LAW)
works to educate us. As I see it it does not abridge freedomne,
but, rather, it enhances it so that all may shar in it. The
possibility of sharing is what is important. None of us are
entirely islated.

And yes, we have debts. As individuals (of a degree of honor
only known intimately by ourselves). I would say, we need to
discharge those debts (in my case, they are those which I alone
can determine, and -- take theKarma for such decisons) to the
utmost.

I can see where this leads to definitions involving the practice
of practical virtue, and the definition of vice and untruth. But
I can only say that reincarnation lends a dimension of importance
to all such decisions, and, it ought to be carefully considered.

I might put it in another way:

Either we live in a universe, and a world ,where LAW prevails --
or we do not. In my opinion, those UNIVERSAL laws are
impersonal, impartial and act without regard to personalities and
individual preferences.

The "King and the pauper" are treated alike by THE LAW. There
are no "privileges" other than honesty and rectitude in all
matters -- if we conceive (as the law of most, if not every
country now does) that everyone is on a common level, and if, in
addtion, the student of Theosopnhy considers him / her an
immortal SOUL (MONAD), and a brother immortal, then, we (and
they) will be called to answer for all our decisions by THE LAW.


Either the UNIVERSE is GOD in fact, or it (and the concept of a
"God") is a sham -- a Maya, and a rather poor and shameful one.
What does omnipresence, oniscience and omnipotence really imply
-- as godlike attributes in human practice? I hopd that our
mind-power are a portion of our own inherent "Godhood" -- since
GOD is everywhere IT (or He), wold be closest to us
insideourselves. We rarely think of Jesus' saying: " Know ye
not ye are Gods?"
-- John 10, 34-5.

How can LAW (and UNIVERSAL DEITY) work, unless there is rigid
and absolute JUSTICE [No selfish absolution where the victims
receives no redress from those who produced pain and suffering
for him and his family.] ?

============================

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony
Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 2:14 AM
To:
Subject: [bn-study] Re: Divine Wind

Dallas


Believing in peace is rather different to being peaceful.


Can CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTION (you even put it in capitals)
be seen as a peaceful act if it causes others to torture and kill
as
you are stating? It is difficult to see the TRUE sage acting in
that way.

<<<The strength we need to gain is that which refuses to hurt or
harm anyone
no matter hat the provocation.>>>

But Truth (Karma) can and does hurt.

Does the sage refuse to hurt? Surely he isn't in that kind of
arena (of hurting
or not hurting) and would be a co-worker with nature. Working
in line with
Truth.

Soldiers fighting in wars are made up of all kinds of people,
including good
ones, to put it in that way. And in the heat of battle they are
capable of
great courage and UNSELFISH acts. It would be difficult to draw
the
conclusion, which you appear to make by your statement, that
CONCIENTIOUS
OBJECTION is somehow better or more peaceful or more right.

Is there a different way to approach it?

Tony


-----Original Message-----
From: Dallas TenBroeck [mailto:dalval14@earthlink.net]
Sent: 29 April 2004 9:48 pm
To: AA-BNStudy
Subject: RE: Theos-World [bn-study] Re: Divine Wind


Thursday, April 29, 2004

Dear A:

There are as I see it in THEOSOPHY two laws operating:

1.	Karma of the individual which faces him with the decision
to kill or
not to kill. Some who believe in peace have adopted
"CONSCIENTIOUS
OBJECTION and have taken the subsequent martyrdom of ostracism,
torture or
worse -- even death.

2	All decisions are choices and even "going with the flow"
does not
relieve anyone from Karmic consequences.

The strength we need to gain is that which refuses to hurt or
harm anyone no
matter hat the provocation.

Best wishes,


Dallas






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