Theos-Talk Archives (April 2004 Message tt00408)

>Dear Ali,
>
>Note that Krishnamurti denied an eyewitness account of his being
>abused by CWL, when his father sued AB for custody.

>Who was the eyewitness, and what was their credibility?

As I recall, the eyewitness was a maid who passed the room in which
the “ACT” was taking place. And since you don’t seem to be aware of
the juicy details of the ACT, permit me to fill you in. As I have
pointed out here in past years, it seems to me that this is more of a
cultural misunderstanding than anything else.

You are no doubt aware that there is a strong prejudice in some Born
Again Theosophists against many of the actors in early Theosophical
history, and there seems to be a tendency among some to give a false
impression about some that have been cast into the outer darkness, so
to speak. Mr. Olcott, Mr. Leadbeater, Ms. Besant, Dion Fortune, AAB,
the list goes on and on of those who are of the Political outcasts.
Not outright lies, mind you, just politically correct false
impressions.

And also, keep in mind that this took place about 100 years ago, when
the Victorians and their moral judgements held sway, much the same way
that the “Fundamentalists” hold sway here now in some of the
Christian, and Muslim communities.

In the place where all this took place, there were the Victorian
British Christians, and the Hindus, who had their own customs and
practices.

Krishnamurti was in the Hindu camp, and his father had certain basic
customs, that he felt expressed “Morality”, that was not shared by the
English Christians. When Krishnamurti was first discovered, he had an
odd haircut, he was dirty, gaunt, had crooked teeth, and all sorts of
things that proper Englishmen disapproved of.

Mary Lutyens, in her first volume of the Krishnamurti biography, [ISBN
0-380-00734-7] in 1975, says on page 27, says: “Dick Clarke also had
the task of grooming the boys; they were de-loused – there were lice
even in their eyebrows; their hair was allowed to grow in front and
was cut to shoulder length; the dentist fitted Krishna with a plate
which Clarke had to tighten every day; but it seems to have been
Leadbeater who supervised their washing, making sure they did not
neglect to wash between their legs. He deplored the ceremonial Hindu
way of bathing by merely pouring water over the body while still
wearing a loin cloth; but this European manner of washing was, later
on, to cause a great deal of trouble.”

Gregory Tillett, in his biography of Leadbeater of 1982, The Elder
Brother, [ISBN 0-7100-0962-7], also remarked on this, Page 125, “Dick
Balfour Clarke was responsible for the cleanliness of the boys, and
Leadbeater took a special interest in this. He supervised their
washing, making sure they did not neglect to wash between their legs.
He disapproved of the typical, and ceremonial, Hindu way of bathing by
merely pouring water over the body, still clad in a loin cloth. His
interest in washing was to cause considerable trouble in future.”

Radha Rajagopal Sloss, who grew up with Krishnamurti in the house,
also wrote a biography, Lives in the Shadow with J. Krishnamurti,
[ISBN 0-201-62701-9] in 1991, in which she included her personal
observations, also remarked about this Gross Immorality that everyone
else seems to want to use to create false impressions about. On page
31, she says, “According to Richard Balfour-Clark, one of the boys’
tutors at Adyar, whom I was fortunate to meet in 1973, Krishna showed
considerable prowess in cycling long distances. Leadbeater was
determined to replace Indian with European ideas of personal
cleanliness. While Brahmins found the English habit of soaking in one’
s own dirty bath water quite revolting, Leadbeater disapproved of the
Indian way of sloshing water over the body while clad in a loin cloth,
a procedure he considered inadequate.”

Again, in Mary Lutyens Krishnamurti Years of Awakening, page 73, the
Indian Judge in the case that Krishnamurti’s father case commented,
“Mrs. Besant’s servant, Lakshman, had been called as a witness at the
request of both parties. The judge referred to his evidence in the
course of which he said, “Hindus usually do not bathe naked. It is
sinful. I do not think Mr. Leadbeater was doing wrong.” The judge
accepted Leadbeater’s explanation that he found it necessary to teach
the boys bathing in the English fashion without clothing.”

So if you bathe naked, you now know that you are committing a “SIN”,
if you are in India. And what of those who have such an animosity
toward Mr. Leadbeater to the extent that they will use this culture
difference of bathing without clothing, to create a false impression
of “Immorality”? Is this also a sin?

>If you can
>imagine the shame that contemporary victims of sexual abuse feel,
>and then translate that into the context of society a century ago,
>that gives some context in which to weigh the plausibility of such

Is teaching one to bathe in the European manner a case of sexual
abuse? Some people have another type of axe to grind. I am (not
really ) very surprised that you haven’t gotten a whole bunch of
messages converting this from “Sexual Abuse” to cultural differences.

>I'm trying to get a balanced scenario, and some things just don't
jibe.

You can say that again!

>One
>of those things is Krishnamurti's own spiritual status. Now, given,
he may
>not have been the awakened teacher when the alleged abuse went on,
and it is
>possible that if it had occurred, he would have denied it as any teen
would.

>But at some point, someone would have bugged him about the alleged
buggering, and he would have had to tell it frankly.

But, as you see, there was no “alleged buggering”. You are jumping to
conclusions, and I don’t see much evidence that many people want you
to know the facts.




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ali Hassan" <ananda_hotai@hotmail.com>
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Inventing a brother Gerald and telling
Jinarajadasa he was...


> >Dear Ali,
> >
> >Pardon me for an explanation lacking in citations to the best
> >source, but I'm at work and don't have access to Tillett's book
>
> That pursuit at gunpoint, then relenting is a very odd thing, no?
>
> >Note that Krishnamurti denied an eyewitness account of his being
> >abused by CWL, when his father sued AB for custody.
>
> Who was the eyewitness, and what was their credibility?
>
> >If you can
> >imagine the shame that contemporary victims of sexual abuse feel,
> >and then translate that into the context of society a century ago,
> >that gives some context in which to weigh the plausibility of such
>
> I'm trying to get a balanced scenario, and some things just don't
jibe. One
> of those things is Krishnamurti's own spiritual status. Now, given,
he may
> not have been the awakened teacher when the alleged abuse went on,
and it is
> possible that if it had occurred, he would have denied it as any
teen would.
>
> But at some point, someone would have bugged him about the alleged
> buggering, and he would have had to tell it frankly. > Did
Jinarajadasa claim to have been abused by CWL?
>
> regards-
>
> Ali
>
>