Theos-Talk Archives (October 2003 Message tt00251)

Leon, you asked: <<< How can the words 
exoteric and esoteric be joined together to 
make a single adjective ("exoteric/esoteric") 
describing "theosophical discussions," when 
the meanings of these individual words are 
essentially opposites? Besides, the only 
person here that appears interested in 
considering either of them, in combination or 
otherwise, seems to be you. (And, now me, 
since I got caught in your net of circular 
reasoning -- that always seems to lead 
nowhere -- at least in relation to theosophy, 
or the subject of any discussion here.:-) 
> >
Leon, "describing Theosophical discussions" 
doesn't seem to be in keeping with the kind 
of wording I might want to use in relation to 
what I had in mind by "exoteric/esoteric." 
As for your "leading somewhere or nowhere" in 
terms of my "intended meaning," I'm offering 
the following by way of my HSO (no relation 
to Ford, incidentally---need I add, since you 
seem to have a tendency to find humour in 
some of my qualifiers.):

And, mind you (if I may offer a brief aside 
here before I go on to that 
"exoteric/esoteric" topic?), those various 
helpful comments from you and others in 
regard to my "excessive" qualifiers, and 
whatever, have been taken under advisement at 
this end, or head, believe it or not (though 
somewhat speculatively---alas, need I 
repeat?---seeing as---unlike some?---my 
general belief system seems---by way of my 
speculative mien, at any rate---kind of 
limited to what might be described as the 
mayavic dependent arisings of karma, so ... 
^:-/ ...

I seem to recall that you, Leon, might've at 
some point more or less stated, or hinted, 
that you don't see much, any, or enough 
worth-while general relevance in the terms 
"exoteric" and "esoteric," (except, maybe, in 
some kind of highly qualified contexts, 
possibly?) ... In any case, I tend to agree 
with a kind of "gist" of meaning in terms of 
as that kind of thing might be somewhat 
generally understood---although, in relation 
to, say, Theosophics, as I "tend to see it," 
well ...

On second thought (would one prefer a new 
paragraph, as well, maybe ...), it has 
occurred to me that, just possibly, there 
might be, somewhat broadly speaking (or, say, 
as per a kind of "middle way," in a sense 
...) ... (and seeing as I might be seen to be 
on record as having claimed to have turned 
over some kind of new leaf with respect to 
my tendency to "over qualify" my intended 
meanings, I might be well advised, I suspect, 
to see if I can skip over to some kind of 
"less qualified" version that might, still, 
somehow, rather magically---ie, even with my 
hands tied, in effect---get some or "enough" 
of my intended meaning across, just possibly) 
... so it's occurred to me that there might 
be a kind of "middle way" approach, or 
mentality, that might, to some extent, (as 
among students of Theosophy, say ...) kind of 
help to generate some kind of state of mind 
that, in turn (if not "directly enough"), 
lead to some kind of appreciation of what 
might be described (by some?) as a kind of 
transcendental meaning of the words 
"exoteric" and "esoteric"---but of course if 
"transcendental meanings" of the kind I am 
trying to described here are not much 
appreciated on this list, well ... then I 
might be barking up the wrong tree, again, 
possibly ...?

So, "exoteric," as I see it, in relation to 
the likes of "t/Theosophics," in general: 
might have to do with that which can be 
verified WITH RESPECT TO that which, as per 
the Esoteric Tradition, say, might be 
described as a medium of reality known as 
"karmic," or which (medium of reality) might 
be seen to be in keeping with dependent 
arisings and, therefore, in as much as such a 
medium of reality is seen to have nothing 
more in the way of intrinsic reality (ie, 
aside from such as the dependent arisings of 
essential duality and "karma"---however those 
might be, in turn, qualified or interpreted 
per various "karmic tendencies"), then, as I 
see it, such a medium of reality is, 
therefore, to that extent, seen (or not 
seen), as "exoteric," in effect (ie, at least 
in comparative terms, if not "more" so). At 
any rate, one may, (as in my case), at least 
hope that one's "intended meaning" re 
"exoteric," eg, might be in keeping with some 
kind of general mental workings (karma) of 
"enough people" on these lists (not that some 
of us might not think that even one person 
might make "enough people," here, so ...). 
Not that ...

So, "esoteric," as I see it, or, rather, 
"tend to see it, speculatively" (seeing as my 
"directer experience" of anything that might 
be described as particularly esoteric seems 
rather lacking, apparenlty) ... so, 
"esoteric," to me,
has to do with those aspects/experiences that 
are, in effect, in a sense, "pointed at" by 
such wording as HPB's "the soul of things," 
eg, which kinds of "things," as I see it, are 
not explainable (only "pointable, in a 
sense") any which way on this essentially 
dualistic, karmic, mayavic plane, in as much 
as if such explaining is understood only in 
its "dead letter" terms based on the 
dependcnt arisings of karma and maya.

So the "exoteric/esoteric" references I've 
used in my posts are in keeping with the 
preceding in the various intended, 
contextual, expanded senses (ie, whether or 
not those "intended" meanings were 
unscrambled at the receiving end out of my 
qualifiers).

Sorry about my qualifers if they were seen as 
excessive and confusing. But, then, as I 
see, "some things," as it were, (note 
quotes), are difficult enough to even as much 
as "try to convey something about," so ... 
^:-/ ... Leon, in your case, for example, as 
I see it, your rather "scientific" efforts to 
explain the unexplainable are, I suspect, 
just as confusing to many people, so ... ^:-/ 
... Not that your "scientizing," in effect, 
might not have more pull, in general, as 
compared to my speculative approach (which 
kind of "speculative approach" might often be 
seen as "without the benefit of introductory 
modeling," possibly ...), so, in general, I 
tend to respect your efforts, Leon, even 
though, at the same time, I tend to think 
that, like me, you might be about as 
basically blind as a bat, like me ... So at 
least we might have that in common, eh, 
maybe, in a way ... ^:-) ...

Incidentally, that last sentence, believe it 
or not, was actually intended, by me, to be 
"somewhat" humorous (ie, even if it went over 
kind of like a lead balloon). As for the 
rest, for the most part, including that 
letter you thought was hilarious, apparently, 
it was (how can I put it ...) about 99.9% 
intended as rather deadly serious, in a way, 
believe it or not.

I'm beginning to think that some of my 
"attempts to communicate" might have, at 
times, become so deadly, in a way, that they 
might have had the strange effect of getting 
some people (apparently?) to go into a kind 
of automatic defensive mode by "finding 
humor". Sorry about that if that kind of 
thing has happened by any chance. Yes, okay, 
I'll try to be less deadly ("deadly"... ^:-/ 
...) in the future (not to mention so many 
other things). But I'm not promising 
anything, seeing as I seem to have a certain 
tendency to speculate with "enough 
qualifiers," as I tend to see it, so ...

Speculatively,
Mauri

PS Leon, not that I haven't been able to put 
myself in your shoes, kind of, in terms of 
the kind of humor that, in a sense, might be 
optionally/interpretively/alternately seen in 
some of my wordings, by some people. In 
fact, just today, I suddenly thought of how 
you might tend to interpret some of my 
posts/wordings and, what with your 
description of that "professor" act, I even 
found myself laughing about it while getting 
physio therapy for my shoulders (eg I was 
laughing about that sentence that ended with 
"...not that the reverse is not possible, of 
course," among other things). I don't know 
if you read the post where I speculated about 
the possible "Zen slap" causes of my shoulder 
problems in relation to certain "exoteric 
tendencies out there" (ie, speculated in 
terms that transformed the words in some 
posts into effects reminiscent of "exoteric" 
Zen-stick wielding/slapping, in a sense) that 
I thought one (such as myself, at any rate) 
might occasionally find, if all too 
speculatively, on these lists---which 
speculation, true, might've been kind of 
tongue in cheek, partly, but I try not to 
leave "too many stones unturned," as it were, 
for better or worse. And so "excessive 
qualifiers" seem to have a way of slipping 
through my fingers, or head (not that my head 
and fingers have escaped damage, any better, 
really, over time). But, sorry, in general. 
And sorry about being so serious that, 
occasionally (?) ... whatever ...