Theos-Talk Archives (July 2003 Message tt00294)

Hi all of you,

My views are:

Maybe this will help the readers:

Yes.
But let us also remember, that Karma is an illusion, or what I tend to call
"an illusorical reality". Karma is connected with time. And the view of
"time" is an illusion or an illusorical (limited) reality created by the yet
limited mind. The Bhagavad Gita tells us, that Karma springs forth from
ParaBrahman, - the Spiritual God.

The Law of Karma is also called The Law of unselfish Love - by some
Theosophists or Sufis.
Because without unselfish Love - the Law of Karma would not be important.

If one member of a group do something - really good - it spiritually
develops the group he or she is a member of.
If the opposite happens - well bad events might occur.
This show our responsibility towards our friends in a given group. (The Key
to Theosophy)
Theos-Talk is also such a group.

Yes - it is possible to lift another persons karma - so to speak. But, not
just litterally like that.
The Law of Karma and God /Parabrahman have to allow it to happen.
The issue Katinka mentions was'nt, as I see it, covered that well in the
below.
The issue is: The Karmic Law of Compensation.

I found this one by W. Q. Judge:
http://www2.whidbey.com/TheosophicalLiterature/jmorallaw.htm
And at Wisdom World:
http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/education/TheosophyAndEducation3.html
(with Christmas presents and The Bhagavad Gita !)

Let us remember, that we here talk about individual Karma, - the Karma of
the lower Self.
It has been said or written from time to time, that a sage in India has
helped one of his/her disciples by taking on that disciples karmic burden.
In a certain sense it is possible for the Indian sage to do so, by directing
his/her physical life and acting in a required manner, - all done unselfish
from a high spiritual level. It makes the sage sort of responsible for the
disciple. And it can only be done if God/Parabrahman allows it, and even so
it might be a wrong decision the sage took. If it was a wrong decision, it
will - later - show up karmically. The Law of Karma is perfect.
It is possible - just like a doctor can cure or heal a disease in a physical
sense - karmic release can happen on an astral or even mental level. But
again God/Parabrahman and the Law of Karma is sort of watching and will only
allow what i rightousness.
Scriptures within Buddhism and Vedanta has some to offer on the issue.

I and others are here talking about the Karmic Law of Compensation. This Law
is quite often not very well digested in this timeperiod.

The Karmic Law of Compensation makes it possible - if the Law is followed -
to prescribe just like good medicine, that this and that developmental
result is required from the individual in this cycle within a certain
timeperiod - spanning maybe a few incarnations or perhaps more.
If the required result is not achieved (ie. the medicine not taken as
prescribed, - and it gets too old) - then the Karmic reactions will come
according to the lack of result. They may involve sufferings or more likely
a mixture of good experiences and sufferings. But both the individual and
collective situation plays their parts in what happens

The reason for this Law is, that if all Karmic burden of the individuals
lower Self should be released immediately in a split second - no beginner
Theosophist would survive it physically, and no spiritual development would
take place.
So the individuals Karmic burdens, upliftings or experiences in life aught
to be released - say Karmically following the Law itself. - That happens
when it is possible, and when needed, and when the global circumstances
makes it important...etc...so to develop the individual and the whole.
The ...intensity, the ...timeframe, the ...manner in which it takes place -
happens according to the Karmic situation when viewed individually as well
as collectively.

Because of the complexity of the many relations between individuals and
groups - and even the Planet and Cosmos -- it is not
that simple to know, what will happen - how the individual or the groups
will react - or predict the karmic events or releases.
That is why so many Astrologers are making wrong predictions.
It is said that The Masters are transmitting or reflecting the energies from
the Planets.
The students lives within the aura of these great beings, and have to learn
to distinguish good from bad.

The funny thing is - no two persons experience the same - when participating
in the same Theosophical meeting. So the karmic results are different for
each individual - even if there is some overlap.

After all, we all live together here in Cosmos. And we have to deal with
each other. We can't escape that. We might think we can, but infact we
cannot.
This reminds me of another Law --- Equal attracts equal.
Sometimes some of us here in the Land of the Fools also call it Social
Tribalism.


There are many books on the issue Karma - and the Internet has also much to
offer to the interested english-reading student. Some books to read -
could - be the following scholar-works - and then later on the more
Theosophical books:
1. "Karma and Rebirth in Classical Indian Traditions" by Wendy O Flaherty,
1980.
2. "The Law of Karma (Library of Philosophy and Religion)" by Bruce R
Reichenbach MA PhD, 1990

- The last book is recommended to the english-reading student of the Law of
Karma as well as the litterature he used making this book. This compact book
for instance covers 4-5 different versions on the "Free-will" issue of
Karma.
Bruce has made more than one scientific related book on religious and
philosophical issues. He has as far as I can remember been working in the
Netherlands.
I have to say I disagree with Bruce on his presentation of the issue we call
"Grace" in the above mentioned book.

The above mentioned books are according to my view helpfull in the sense,
that they teach the readers the many different versions of the Law of Karma,
although they do'nt cover all the versions. The books are often available on
the major libraries.

The Law of Karma is also the Law of Love in Action and Unselfishness.
What is being developed is the removal of ignorance - and because of that
the lack of being selfish. Remove your ignorance and develop wisdom about
the heart of unselfishness. Take your time. But let us not waste our time.

So what is love ?
What is it to care ?


This is what I offer.
What do reader offer ?
Ignorance or knowledge ?
A physical email ?


Feel free...


from
M. Sufilight with peace and love...



----- Original Message ----- 
From: <dalval14@earthlink.net>
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 10:27 AM
Subject: RE: Theos-World: Masters & Karma


> Tuesday, July 29, 2003
>
> RE: Theos-World: MASTERS & KARMA
>
>
> Dear Friend:
>
> Masters are the servants and not the controllers of the great Law
> of Karma.
>
> It is only the "personality" and the lower mind united to desire
> that selfishly does "evil."
>
> Any evil thought feeling or act damages the living monads all
> around us. Only we can do this.
>
> No one can consider "helping us" unless we deserve it. If we are
> afraid of the effects we are going to reap from some evil we have
> done, then that fear will attract the retribution, surely.
>
> As to Their "help" given to special individuals.
>
> H P B performed a self-sacrificial act. She was "helped" because
> of her help given to others
> A great difference.
>
> HAVE WE DONE ANYTHING SIMILAR ?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Dallas
>
>
> PS see below
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------
>
> APHORISMS ON KARMA
>
>
> (1) There is no Karma unless there is a being to make it or feel
> its effects.[PARA][PARA](2) Karma is the adjustment of effects
> flowing from causes, during which the being upon whom and through
> whom that adjustment is effected experiences pain or
> pleasure.[PARA][PARA](3) Karma is an undeviating and unerring
> tendency in the Universe to restore equilibrium, and it operates
> incessantly.[PARA][PARA](4) The apparent stoppage of this
> restoration to equilibrium is due to the necessary adjustment of
> disturbance at some other spot, place, or focus which is visible
> only to the Yogi, to the Sage, or the perfect Seer: there is
> therefore no stoppage, but only a hiding from
> view.[PARA][PARA](5) Karma operates on all things and beings from
> the minutest conceivable atom to Brahma. Proceeding in the three
> worlds men, gods, and the elemental beings, no spot in the
> manifested universe is exempt from its sway.[PARA][PARA](6) Karma
> is not subject to time, and therefore he who knows what is the
> ultimate division of time in this Universe knows
> Karma.[PARA][PARA](7) For all other men Karma is in its essential
> nature unknown and unknowable.[PARA][PARA](8) But its action may
> be known by calculation from cause to effect; and this
> calculation is possible because the effect is wrapped up in and
> is not succedent to the cause.[PARA][PARA](9) The Karma of this
> earth is the combination of the acts and thoughts of all beings
> of every grade which were concerned in the preceding Manvantara
> or evolutionary stream from which ours flows.[PARA][PARA](10) And
> as those beings include Lords of Power and Holy Men, as well as
> weak and wicked ones, the period of the earth's duration is
> greater than that of any entity or race upon it.[PARA][PARA](11)
> Because the Karma of this earth and its races began in a past too
> far back for human minds to reach, an inquiry into its beginning
> is useless and profitless.[PARA][PARA](12) Karmic causes already
> set in motion must be allowed to sweep on until exhausted, but
> this permits no man to refuse to help his fellows and every
> sentient being.[PARA][PARA](13) The effects may be counteracted
> or mitigated by the thoughts and acts of oneself or of another,
> and then the resulting effects represent the combination and
> interaction of the whole number of causes involved in producing
> the effects.[PARA][PARA](14) In the life of worlds, races,
> nations, and individuals, Karma cannot act unless there is an
> appropriate instrument provided for its action.[PARA][PARA](15)
> And until such appropriate instrument is found, that Karma
> related to it remains unexpended.[PARA][PARA](16) While a man is
> experiencing Karma in the instrument provided, his other
> unexpended Karma is not exhausted through other beings or means,
> but is held reserved for future operation; and lapse of time
> during which no operation of that Karma is felt causes no
> deterioration in its force or change in its
> nature.[PARA][PARA](17) The appropriateness of an instrument for
> the operation of Karma consists in the exact connection and
> relation of the Karma with the body, mind, intellectual and
> psychical nature acquired for use by the Ego in any
> life.[PARA][PARA](18) Every instrument used by any Ego in any
> life is appropriate to the Karma operating through
> it.[PARA][PARA](19) Changes may occur in the instrument during
> one life so as to make it appropriate for a new class of Karma,
> and this may take place in two ways: (a) through intensity of
> thought and the power of a vow, and (b) through natural
> alterations due to complete exhaustion of old
> causes.[PARA][PARA](20) As body and mind and soul have each a
> power of independent action, any one of these may exhaust,
> independently of the others, some Karmic causes more remote from
> or nearer to the time of their inception than those operating
> through other channels.[PARA][PARA](21) Karma is both merciful
> and just. Mercy and Justice are only opposite poles of a single
> whole; and Mercy without Justice is not possible in the
> operations of Karma. That which man calls Mercy and Justice is
> defective, errant, and impure.[PARA][PARA](22) Karma may be of
> three sorts: (a) presently operative in this life through the
> appropriate instruments; (b) that which is being made or stored
> up to be exhausted in the future; Karma held over from past life
> or lives and not operating yet because inhibited by
> inappropriateness of the instrument in use by the Ego, or by the
> force of Karma now operating.[PARA][PARA](23) Three fields of
> operation are used in each being by Karma: (a) the body and the
> circumstances; (b) the mind and intellect; the psychic and astral
> planes.[PARA][PARA](24) Held-over Karma or present Karma may
> each, or both at once, operate in all of the three fields of
> Karmic operation at once, or in either of those fields a
> different class of Karma from that using the others may operate
> at the same time.[PARA][PARA](25) Birth into any sort of body and
> to obtain the fruits of any sort of Karma is due to the
> preponderance of the line of Karmic tendency.[PARA][PARA](26) The
> sway of Karmic tendency will influence the incarnation of an Ego,
> or any family of Egos, for three lives at least, when measures of
> repression, elimination, or counteraction are not
> adopted.[PARA][PARA](27) Measures taken by an Ego to repress
> tendency, eliminate defects, and to counteract by setting up
> different causes, will alter the sway of Karmic tendency and
> shorten its influence in accordance with the strength or weakness
> of the efforts expended in carrying out the measures
> adopted.[PARA][PARA](28) No man but a sage or true seer can judge
> another's Karma. Hence while each receives his deserts,
> appearances may deceive, and birth into Poverty or heavy trial
> may not be punishment for bad Karma, for Egos continually
> incarnate into poor surroundings where they experience
> difficulties and trials which are for the discipline of the Ego
> and result in strength, fortitude, and sympathy.[PARA][PARA](29)
> Race-Karma influences each unit in the race through the law of
> Distribution. National Karma operates on the members of the
> nation by the same law more concentrated. Family Karma governs
> only with a nation where families have been kept pure and
> distinct; for in any nation where there is a mixture of family -
> as obtains in each Kaliyuga period - family Karma is in general
> distributed over a nation. But even at such periods some families
> remain coherent for long periods, and then the members feel the
> sway of family Karma. The word "family" may include several
> smaller families.[PARA][PARA](30) Karma operates to produce
> cataclysms of nature by concatenation through the mental and
> astral planes of being. A cataclysm may be traced to an immediate
> physical cause such as internal fire and atmospheric disturbance,
> but these have been brought on by the disturbance created through
> the dynamic power of human thought.[PARA][PARA](31) Egos who have
> no Karmic connection with a portion of the globe where a
> cataclysm is coming on are kept without the latter's operation in
> two ways: (a) by repulsion acting on their inner nature, and (b)
> by being called and warned by those who watch the progress of the
> world.[PARA][PARA]Path, March, 1893[PARA]
> -- W Q Judge
>
>
> =========================================
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: leonmaurer
> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 9:33 PM
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: Theos-World karma
>
>
> In a message dated 07/28/03 6:26:13 AM, mail@katinkahesselink.net
> writes:
>
> >Do you think it is possible for the Adepts to get rid of
> >somebody else's karma? By two well-studied theosophists 'of
> >long standing' it was said that when HPB was on her
> >death-bed, and the Masters healed her, after having asked
> >her if she would consent to that (and write the Secret
> >Doctrine) - that this healing was interfering with or
> >lifting of karma. In short: it was stated that this
> >incident showed that the Mahatmas were beyond karma. Do you
> >all think this likely, possible, reasonable ... etc.??
>
>
>
>
>
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