Theos-Talk Archives (July 2003 Message tt00256)

Monday, July 21, 2003

Re: Free-will and discrimination -- Virtues from Vices


Dear Etzion"


Don't you think the issue of free-will arises when there is
contrast and choice possible?

To see a difference requires 2 or 3 "positions" as alternatives,
and something that does not "change" to which those "positions"
(or opinions) can be referred again. Who or What in us is the
Observer, the Witness? And What is the "observed?"

[In Science we have the various "Laws" discovered by explorers of
Nature to exist and to repeat faithfully the conditions and
properties under which physical and material events reoccur.
That gives security and something stable to refer back to. In
Mathematics we find that every aspect of development is based on
the 4 basic laws of arithmetic, and the 3 basic laws of Geometry,
Etc., etc.

All Science is based on law. The presence of Law is an innate
and an ineradicable quality. It does not depend on any human
knowledge or ignorance of its existence Why assume that the
rest of Nature is lawless ? Have we any real hard evidence of
this? [How are "accidents, and "strokes of fortune," to be
explained ?]

If the position is that God, or Deity is everywhere. Then He or
It is present in us all the time. At no time is God absent from
anything. It is presumed that God is also "good." It is also
presumed that the "Ego" within is an aspect (or a "Ray") of the
Universal GOD, isn't it ? What else could Man's SPIRIT be ?

Are not the values ascribed to the "virtues" said to be "good ?"
Why so? Is it because they are dependable, fair, just, and
benevolent in their impartial operation? This gives a universal
basis of cooperation, compassion and assistance to all others in
Nature -- our brothers.

If there is in our feelings and minds a kind of doubt, suspicion,
or rebellion, then we wonder why. Why do our desires for
ourselves (selfishness) usually turn out to be short-sighted?

What are they ? I mean these desires? Perhaps we could each
generate a list? Also, the may be found to coincide in certain
areas.

I have a list of several (10) :--


SELFISHNESS, (Cares only for perpetual self-ease, has no regard
for others, defends these with vigor, attacks all those that
unbalance this attitude,),

DOUBT, (it always mocks, eternally questions any "virtue,"
"explorer's reports," reputed "truth", but has no solutions to
offer),

FAITH (blind faith and belief, avoids thinking and reasoning out
the consequences of any choice, adopts a "credo," seeks to
justify it, and demands that all others be forced to adopt it --
the basis for dogmatic creeds and compliant trust, refusal to
adopt virtues for themselves),

PASSION (self-love, egotism, lust, passion to possess, to
control and to own),

HATRED (an urge to destroy any wisdom that gives a sound
(impersonal and universal) reason to opposition to its personal
pleasures and ease),

LONGEVITY (a desire for an endless physical life in the present
body, fear of death and disease, and a seeking to restore health
by any means, when it breaks down.), A denial of Reincarnation?

FAME (a desire to be recognized as a King, a Ruler, an Authority
or "the Best")

PRIDE	(in whatever it deems to be its supreme achievement and
authority, always works slyly to achieve such a prominence, or
to be "the power behind the throne")

IGNORANCE	(inertia, and refusal to learn in any area of
knowledge, or all)

ISOLATION	(Desire to be "left alone." But if God is everywhere,
then this is impossible.)

-------------------------------

You ask: "And here comes the ancient call of the divine
hierarchy: Man, where art thou?"

Theosophy teaches that Divine Man (God) is always resident in the
material man. It is (in Man) the Perceiver and the "thought
producer." It continually questions, and seeks to learn. It
tries to reduce ignorance and selfishness, and offers a knowledge
of TRUTH instead..

Intuitively, as a practise, it recognizes Universal Brotherhood
as the best method to use all the time to improve and to learn.
It is always active and never passive.

The objective of all evolution is to so refine the physical man
that the spiritual, inner GOD may allowed to shine through, and
virtue may thus be taught. It is the" matter aspect" of Living
that is under training and improvement.

What do you think?

Dallas

=========================


-----Original Message-----
From: Etzion Becker [mailto:etvionbb@netvision.net.il]
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 9:57 PM
To: study@blavatsky.net
Subject: [bn-study] Re: free will

The issue of free will appears, of course in the Old Testament.
Exodus, chapter 2, is dealing with *free will* right from the
start. Man was
given a world to express himself, but what to do, to go after his
feelings
or emotions, or to stay attentive to the design of the great Ones
who
created all this setting for man. Humankind chose to meddle with
the world
of illusion, and reaped suffering. The rest of the Biblical
account, is no
more but a record of non stop suffering. And here comes the
ancient call of
the divine hierarchy: Man, where art thou?

Etzion

----- Original Message -----
From: <dalval14@earthlink.net>
To: <study@blavatsky.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2003 10:14 PM
Subject: [bn-study] Re: free will


> Sunday, July 20, 2003
>
> Re: Free will. Is it or Isn't it?
>
> Dear Reed:
>
> We all (most of us) know from experience that boiling water
gives
> a nasty scald (burn ?),
> All are cautious around fire and boiling water, no repeats
> wanted.
>
> But to test it personally by direct experience again requires a
> determination which illustrates "free-will." The cook in the
> kitchen is vigilant and careful, but accidents occur, and
> repeats. So it the scientist in his lab.
>
> If we call burning our fingers a "sin" or an "evil" then the
> question is "Why repeat?" Does not the memory of past cause
and
> effect lend us a hand in making such a determination.? How can
> we learn to dominate and subdue "fear?"
>
> When we come to the more subtle aspects of decision making,
> involving our desires, likes and wants, the exact pathway of
> cause and effect is often obscure or blurred. We find our
> "memory" is imperfect. Many memories of other events and
causes
> seem to impinge on this. It becomes difficult to focus on a
> single action.
>
> Is it legitimate to make the decision that there is such a
> relationship, even if we cannot secure a clear memory ?
>
> If we take the assistance of others, and also use parallel
> observation in other fields, we find the cause/effect relation
is
> fairly exact and an effect can be seen to follow its causes.
[In
> Science we find this quite evident in observation in the past,
> and practice in the present, in mathematics, geometry,
> architecture, navigation, meteorology, electricity and
magnetism,
> engineering, chemistry and physics, etc.,]
>
> But when we come to dealing with "living things," like plants,
> biology, ecology, human relations, psychology and philosophy,
> emotions and thought in man, we stumble and become unsure.
They
> appear to be simultaneously sensitive to a number of
contributing
> causes. The relationship become]s complex.
>
> Do we lack data, or, are we unable to secure or make a "pure
and
> exact" record of such data?
>
> Is there something in us that tends to blur the record we make
of
> events that succeed our choices (and actions -- and their
> possible slow or fast results) based "WILL ?"
>
> Is there something in our personality (or our attempt to
present
> the finest picture thereof to others) that might obstruct true
> recording?
>
> If so, the data we have in regard to human choosing might be so
> contaminated (by self-interest) as to be on the whole
worthless.
>
> In other words, does our error in choosing lead to concealment
?
> And if so, why?
>
> As to the teachings of Great Personages down the ages, whose
> stirring words, examples in action, and attitudes tend to show
> us all, that there are some Individuals who are able to frame
for
> themselves a virtuous life, and live in an ideal world of truth
> and honesty, have not many of thee been formalized,
materialized
> and made into the basis for "religions ?"
>
> What shall we say about this?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Dallas.



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