Theos-Talk Archives (July 2003 Message tt00108)

Sent by DTB


Friday, July 11, 2003


Dear Peter:


I’ll take up the items you yellowed. only

This is getting long indeed, but so interesting.


INFLUENCES

I think this also has to do with True ASTROLOGY and KARMA.

-----------------------------------


1
DTB

Look in THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY at ASTROLOGY, p. 38-9, as some
useful hints are given there. Also ZODIAC p. 387. All
inter-related with our Karma (individual and racial). Also gives
an idea how ancient this system is as the zodiac is universally
found in antiquity.


2

DTB

>From THEOSOPHICAL FORUM, p. 17-18, Answers by WQJ -
judge

“ Q: If all our sufferings in this life are caused by the
misdeeds of a former life, how can any combination of sidereal
influences at birth effect our fate?

W.Q.J.—A thorough acquaintance with the doctrine of Karma and
with what is actually claimed for Astrology by those qualified to
speak, would result in an answer to this question. Astrology is
not soothsaying nor card-reading; reading omens is soothsaying;
reading cards is a form of divination: Astrology is neither of
these.

All that is claimed for it is that the whole assemblage of stars
indicate, as being a vast machine or clockwork, just exactly what
is the state or condition of any one spot in the whole mass. Is
this any more absurd than to say that a watchmaker can tell from
the movements of a watch just where the hands will be at any
particular moment, and likewise from the hands alone where the
different cogs and other parts are within?

If common minds, and ignorant as well as venal practitioners of
Astrology, make a stock of their imitations, wrong conceptions,
and base uses of it, that is no reason why the FORUM should
sweepingly denounce Astrology. As well denounce real Christianity
because of the base coinage labeled with its name.

Taking now the oft-made assertion that “Karma governs all worlds
up to that of Brahma,” we reply to the question that our Karma
and the stars are inextricably linked together, for if we had no
Karma there would for us be no stars. It is just because the
Karma of any being at birth is fixed from his prior one that the
great clockwork of the skies shows unerringly to the sage—but not
to the dabbler nor to the modern abusers of Astrology—the Karma
or present fate of the being.

But if, as so often done by even the best of Theosophists, we
separate any part of our universe from any other portion, putting
one under the influence of Karma and another not, then of course
such questions as this one cannot be answered.

The doctrines of the Wisdom-Religion are nought if not
all-embracing, are useless and misleading if not applicable to
the greatest as well as the very least of circumstances or
worlds; and so we answer that not only do sidereal positions
indicate our Karma, but even the very clouds, the wind, and the
hour of the day or night in which we may be born, do the same.

Q.: Is the seventh principle, the Atma, ever incarnated,
or are our bodies simply projections of that principle and formed
by it, as was the statue Galatœa by Pygmalion? From some
Theosophical books I gather that the seven principles are all
incarnated from the beginning, and that each principle is evolved
in turn. From others it would seem that the higher principles are
never incarnated.

W.Q.J.—The fiction of the formation of Galataea by Pygmalion is
such a faint and inadequate symbol or illustration that there is
nothing to be gained by its use, as it will surely mislead.

The evolution of the bodily form came about in the same way as
that of all other forms; as said in the Bhagavad-Gita, “All is
due to the mystic power of self-ideation, the eternal thought in
the eternal mind,” and only in the sense that all forms are
projections from the eternal can we say that “our bodies are
projections of that principle” (Atma).

The second sentence of the question shows that here is another
case in which the very materialistic view of the sevenfold
constitution of man given in Esoteric Buddhism and used by so
many thereafter has resulted in inducing the notion that there is
a separation between the so-called “principles.”

This idea of seven distinct things, entities, or principles in
man ought to be abandoned, and is due almost wholly to erroneous
nomenclature, as was strongly urged in several papers published
in the Path. [THE SEVENFOLD DIVISION W Q J Art. I, p. 298]

There can only be one principle, and all the rest are but aspects
of it, or vehicles for it to work and manifest through. Therefore
but the one principle is involved in generation, when it takes to
itself six sheaths or vehicles, or shows itself under six
aspects.

But as it is Theosophic doctrine that this one principle— call it
Atma—is in essence the Supreme, then its involution in matter is
but partial. In order to understand nature and to reach
self-consciousness, it is necessary that the six vehicles be
found to work through, and what is meant in some Theosophical
books by the statement that each “principle evolves in turn” is
that from the beginning of a Manvantara the six material vehicles
have to be evolved one after the other in due order and in
correspondence with the rest of nature, none lagging behind and
none ahead.

For instance, at that period in evolution when we might assume
that but one vehicle had been fully evolved, then man (so-called)
would not be man as we know him. So we. see in the Secret
Doctrine that man, strictly as such, is not spoken of until
several races or vehicles had been first fully evolved in due
order and proportion.

>From these considerations the old Hindu idea that what we see of
man is but the inner (or outer) hard core—the material body—and
that he, in fact, in his whole nature reaches even to the moon,
would seem to gain some support. And I should incline to the
opinion that Atma is never incarnated, but overshadows and shines
into the being called man whom it has chosen to connect itself
with” --Theos. FORUM, p. 19

==================

3

DTB

This universal “influence” is found described in outline and
principle in S D I 570-3.

Every septenate is automatically and universally connected by
subtle threads of analogy and correspondence with every other
septenate. I understand this is a universal RULE. [see S D I
pp. 9, 11-12, 289-292, from an Occult Catechism and Commentary].
This is of particular importance to the development of human
Intelligence as the Kama-Manas in each of us, struggles,
incarnation after incarnation, to make of itself BUDDHI-MANAS and
thus deserve for itself the altitude of a BUDDHA -- All-wise and
Compassionate to all.

Also, quoting from Dr Richardson, in S D I 531-3, H P B gives the
instance of “nervous influence.”

Influence at a distance of pain or pleasure is well known in the
study of sensitivity in closely related plants. But its exact
method of transference, and the medium through which that
transference is made, is still unknown.

The relation between “Karma” and “stars’ astrological influence”
is again spelled out by H P B in S D I p. 639-40, 646, 668,
and II 500fn, 621, 699; -- and in ISIS UNVEILED I 259, 282,
313-5, and II 460.

The position of the stars indicate a moment of TIME (like the
hands of a clock) -- where a particular influence, or Karma, will
affect a definite person (form).

However the resulting consideration and decisions arising in the
MIND (Kama-manas) of that person, from such influence, cannot be
predicted. It is always free. [see Judge articles:
ASTROLOGICAL ( II - 540); and ASTROLOGY VERIFIED (II 103);
also, (H P B Articles III, p. 70, 243, 401-409); (Judge
Articles, I 179, 275-6, II 540) ]

Astrological relations and influences are mathematically exact
karmic indicators whose science can only be read by the WISE --
the MAHATMA.

Astrology and Karma are reviewed in several articles:
THEOSOPHIST 5, p. 213;
LUCIFER 6, p. 387, 390.

---------------------------------------

DTB INFLUENCES, ANALOGIES, CORRESPONDENCES

As I said: I see from my many years of study, the information is
only HINTED at.

I have a suspicion that each of us form our own “connection” by
self-study, whereby we secure intuitively from within (from the
Divine tutor the HIGHER SELF - ATMA ) the necessary links and
bridges that will connect our present Kama-Manasic knowledge with
that of the universal and already-existing Buddhi-Manas.

Note: that this is only a suspicion of mine and I am further
seeking verification. Why not do the same kind of research ?

============================

4
DTB

A series of articles by R C on PLANETARY INFLUENCES is in
Theosophy Mag. Vol. 9, pp 69, 89, 156. another, in Vol. 26, p.
22.

In the THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT Magazine I find: articles on
planetary influences in

T M Vol. 21 pp. 34 (Judge)
36 521
22 161 (and Karma their rationale)
13 7 (Planets and Gods)
40 455 (Man and this Planet)
23 173 (Our Planet)
34 262 (Planet Mercury)


=============================

5
DTB

ASTRONOMOS -- Title of the 7th degree Initiate The THEOSOPHICAL
GLOSSARY (H P B), p. 39-40

I always ask myself why are people so anxious to discover NOW
what their future may be ?

================================

6
DTB

H P B in describing the INVOLUTIONARY PROCESS of the return of
the Manasaputras to a new planetary system -- reincarnation of an
older one (Our Earth being the reincarnation of the old Moon
planet of last Manvantara).

She states that the HIGHER PRINCIPLES are the first to return;
and, around them (they are FORCES and CENTERS of INFLUENCE),
Nature gradually concretizes the others. One might also say that
the Monads of greater experience act as foci for the progressive
aggregation of the “Monads of lesser experience” who are
presently undergoing further education in line and in continuing
cooperation with that previously acquired.

It is all Nature at her secret, silent work, and all under KARMA.

Have a look at the MAHATMA LETTERS (Barker Edn). pp. 28 to 33
[Letter VIII] as the question of the importance of gradations of
color and sound are spoken of. I must confess that this is a
mystery (to me) still under study. [ see also M L pp. 193-4,
197, 212-5, 224, 315, 466, 227,

How else could we have the 7 fold division, for man and the
Universe, as H P B gives it in S D I 155 and S D II 596 ?

It takes the first 3 ROUNDS, to do much of this reinstallation.
But read the S D for yourself.

This is the INVOLUTION stage, (corresponds with our years of
juvenile learning ever incarnation) which, when complete,
provides the “advanced Monads” of the Moon-chain animal (KAMA)
development, the opportunity under Karma of receiving a tool
which in our philosophy we call an INDEPENDENT MIND { or
independent, free-choosing LOWER-Manas -- and with this, all
the DANGERS of choosing evil and distortive destruction}.

It is all there in the S D.

Do NOT take my word for it, please. I may be quite wrong in my
surmises.

You have to do the work yourself, and for yourself, on your own
“path” to perfection. This is a wonderful test for us all in
this incarnation -- to be able to access directly the words of
the MASTERS and Their TEACHINGS. To study and then apply them to
our consorting with others all around us. That is why I call it
a test. Our good Karma has brought us into contact with
Theosophy. Now what will we do with it?

Incidentally I have tried to adjust the figures given in years
for the cycles in S D II 68-70, but as we are not given the old
starting points this proved ineffectual. There must be a reason
why the Masters did not provide too much clear information about
the past, using dates, etc.

However in the S D, in discussing the history of antiquity, the
deluges, shifting of continents, cataclysms, vast movements of
populations, etc. H P B refers to several Zodiacs that indicated
changes in the star patterns -- indicating shifts, or cataclysms
related to the changing of the Poles of rotation of the Earth.
But this is another study.

The only date and time given to the last second in the S D is the
beginning of KALI YUGA -
S D I 662-3,. Furthermore, cycles overlap. The starting
point of a new cycle may be half-way (more or less) through the
period of the older cycle.

Nature always proceeds slowly, and thoroughly mixes and mingles
any series of transitions, before establishing a completed
difference and separation from the older types. The changes are
always in the “vestures’ or “lower principles,” the source
foundation remains unaffected. It is spiritual and always
eternally entire. It is the movements of these SPIRITUAL CENTERS
that is important. The vestures that clothe them (immortal
Monads under tuition) are by Karma dependent on their Guides, or
Primary Monads.

There are several lengths of Manvantaras as you have found out.
But this is all academic and does not much affect our present
life, or our future Karma. No doubt we will be given more
details when we need them. At the present, I would say, that
much time spent on this is a kind of trap for the Kama-manas. It
prevents it from dwelling on, meditating about, and solving far
more important things. Motive and Will ought to be learned
about. One ought to use Patanjali.

It is clear that there are rules and laws that operate on the
causative side of our physical life, beneath and below the
physical is the Astral and the Pranic, and Kama, which are still
below that as defining energies.

====================================

7

P
Is the S D saying that the “light-beings” on Venus are in their
higher Egoic evolution now, as they are in the seventh Round….



DTB Yes. [S D I 165]

=====================================

8

P
So those Egos that “lightened up” our principles in the Third
Root Race are Egos from a prior Manvantara of the Earth/Moon
chain, not from any “influence” coming from Venus…they are in
fact the Nirmanakayas mentioned in the Voice pp 76-78…



DTB Yes -- and the Mahatmas and all the Buddhas and Dhyanis
connected with our Earth ONLY. MEN of this
Manvantara. Teach MEN of the next S D I 221, 267,

Because ATMA is universal They (the individualized SPARKS) are
in continuous contact with all MAHATMAS and DHYANIS everywhere in
the Kosmos. There is only ONE LAW and KARMA is universal and
impersonal, Hence all Spiritual Beings act and think alike in
their respective spheres of responsibility. It is ONE UNIVERSE
and it always has been so.
[see TRANSACTIONS, pp. 20-24.]

==================================

9
DTB

MANVANTARAS DETAILS. Please use the INDEX and check the
information there. et Here are some:


Total Record in Akasa S D II 49,

Manvantaras & Pralayas S D I 11fn, 240, 373-4,
II
309-10fn,

Maha-Maya (illusion) of M. S D I 278

14 in each DAY OF BRAHMA S D I 63, 245, 370, 442, 450;
II 307-9, 321,
614fn,

7 ROUNDS in a M. S D I 3, 36, II 180, 307,
434,

7 “creations” in each S D I 454, II 53fn,
711,

71 Maha-Yugas S D II 307fn

Length of M. S D II 69, 308-9,

MAHA-MANVANTARA S D I 14, 118fn, 289, 359, 369,
II 79, 309, 320,
602

Kalpas & Maha-Kalpas S D I 36, 206, 336fn, II
70,

Pre-Manvantaric S D I 63, 144, 445-6,

Ideation & “gods” start Manvantaras S D I 326, 375,
II
33, 232, 248,

One CONSCIOUS GUIDING POWER S D I 635, 637,
II
34, 652,

AKASA First “Awakes” From Pralaya S D I 18fn, 253, 326,
487,
II
512,
[A. is a radiation from Mulaprakriti] S D I 10, 35, 110
(Fohat),

DHYANIS live as long as BRAHMA S D I 442, 457, II 179,
[Sons of Brahma reborn] S D II 82-3, 90,
232, 247fn,

LAW (Karma) from one to another S D I 635, 637, II
87-8,

Millions of Worlds in each M. S D I 143fn, 368, II 179,

We are now in the 7th (Vaivaswata) S D II 146-7

Renovation of forms at start and
During S D I 142-3, 290, 326, 452, 536, 545, 673; II 730,

Descended into generation S D II 322,

Dhyan Chohan or Manu S D I 63, 74, 372, 452; II 308-9

SAME HUMANITY THROUGHOUT S D II 146fn

MEN OF THIS M. TEACH MEN
OF THE NEXT S D I 221, 267,

Our M. repeats the first 3 “creations” S D I 454

Earth’s TRUE FORM at end of M. S D I 260,

Suns are the Kama-Rupa of Akasa S D I 527fn

--------------------------------

best wishes,

Dal. Friday, July 11, 2003



=========================
Received

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter B
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 2:38 AM
To:
Subject: On "Influence" NOT "reincarnation" from planet
Venus....

========================

Dear Dallas,

Many thanks for your comments, which has been read with great
care….

PB

I must say first, that I have not been influenced by ---- I have
not even read a whole book of his… when I was seventeen I saw a
book of his and read half of it and had enough, so I do not blame
him for my present “misunderstanding on Venus”…as for Sinnett I
have read most of his books…

Now I like to make my comments on some of the last points of
yours, to see if I have caught the spirit of it….and to perhaps
further the studies in the correct direction…

DTB What he (Sinnett) did (you can read it there) is to
place the GLOBES of Mars and Mercury OUR EARTH CHAIN. It should
have been INFLUENCE That was wrong. They are and always have
been separate, and the mass of Monads that are evolving there are
related solely to them. That host of Monads related to the Earth
stays at home, and doesn’t wander.

DTB An “influence” corresponding to the relations of the
planets, principles and cosmic relations [ S D I 155, II 593,
596 ]

The nature of this “influence” is not made quite clear. But one
may look for it by a careful study of the human and Cosmic
PRINCIPLES ( see S D I 155, II 593, 596 )

P Now you say “influence”, perhaps its around this point
that the whole misunderstanding lies. What is the nature of this
“influence”, how to look at that?

---------------------
DTB
Another hint I think I get is that this is related to the
“principles.” We need to discover how and why the Principles were
developed


PB Yes I think that´s just what it boils down to…how did we
really “receive” our Higher principles… “how and why” the
principles are developed is what is important…


-----------------------
DTB
Each planet, including VENUS, had its own humanity and these were
separate from the EARTH CHAIN OF GLOBES and its HUMANITY. The
present planet we see, is a 4th Globe planet like ours.

PB
Yes this is understood…no connection, physically, astrally….but
what about mental or spiritual incarnation or higher “influence”,
some kind of “overshadowing”…is that also out of the question? Is
it all but analogetic?

Why was this “similarity” with Venus brought about in the first
place, in relation to our development in the third Root Race?
What is gained by presenting it in such a fashion that it is so
easy to mix up fact with fiction…Are the SD saying that the
“light-beings” on Venus are in their higher Egoic evolution now,
as they are in the seventh Round….

------------------------

PB Were these highly developed returning
Nirvanees/Egos developed on the Earth chain prior to the Third
Root Race?…

DTB This refers to prior Manvantaras -- not to the present
one. (see Voice pp 76-78)

PB

So those Egos that “lightened up” our principles in the Third
Root Race are Egos from a prior Manvantara of the Earth/Moon
chain, not from any “influence” coming from Venus…they are in
fact the Nirmanakays mentioned in the Voice pp 76-78…
------------------------

DTB As I understand it, the EARTH CHAIN, and its host of
Monads, is the reincarnation of the MOON chain of last
Manvantara. The Moon chain, like ours had 7 classes of Monads and
these evolved together as we d now with continuous interaction.
Our Earth Chain has always produced a crop of Adepts and Buddhas,
as it stretches back into infinity, and is part of the EVER
BECOMING.

DTB Hint: what does “light-bearer to Earth” mean? Sounds to
me as though Manas was implied. “Light of Mind.” “Lucifer” Eos
heralded the dawn of WISDOM. in old mythology. (S D II 540,)

PB

If so, then the question arises as how to look at the Manvantaras
and their devepolment prior to the Third Root Race…

As a manvantara is not of the same length as a Root Race….what
is meant with a prior Manvantara?….

The relationship between the various “planets, globes, races and
our principles” on the one hand, and the “yugas, manvantaras and
kalpas” on the other hand…all very hard to understand correctly…
to sift out their correct relationship takes a great portion of
intuition and lots of study…I feel that I must have failed to
grasp importants points in this matter which I am now trying to
correct if possible… all these ideas seems to be intertwined
beyond recognition…well nearly almost…so how do I build up a
correct understanding of the whole matter?


--------------------------

DTB Analogy: How does a baby mind become a child-mind?
And how does a child-mind become an “adult-mind,” even if we are
only talking of Kama-Manas, where the acceptance is made easy or
difficult, depending on the freedom of self-choice ?

Where does its mind get lit up? There is the home, and
kindergarten, nursery experience. The “fire” of mind is lit up
every incarnation from the “fires” of minds that surround that
child.

PB

Well, if we have “minds that surround that child” it is easy to
understand, but how does the mind “arrive at the arena” is the
big question, not how the mind teaches us when it is already
here…the getting here…not the teaching here is at stake

------------------------------------

DTB The “Mind” is latent in all forms, (as it is a part of
the eternal Monad), and in this case the Monads that had reached
the utmost development in INSTINCT in their Kamic nature, when
reincarnated, as a host, or wave, all together on this Earth,
were “ready” to have their Manasic light “LIT UP.” The S D says
that the Great Dhyanis - our Spiritual Instructors -- incarnated
among us and did this for us. They also taught at that time all
the basic arts and sciences.

---------------------------
DTB

Also:

We need to discover how and why the Principles were developed
again through the process of INVOLUTION.

What is their pristine spiritual quality, the
psychological-mental power and finally the way physical forms are
affected. [ As an example read KAMADEVA in the THEOSOPHICAL
GLOSSARY p. 170-1 and observe what the pure spiritual KAMA was
and is.] [see S D II 593 -- lower quaternary
correspondences.]

-------------------------------------

PB

I seem to labour under several not so well taken positions (
perhaps not fully digested), for instance the development of the
“principles” vs the “races”….one example is the principle of Kama
as you pointed out….not only being desire/energy, but “love”…we
always seem to have the original/first impulse, then the present
position to take account for….then perhaps to reconcile the two
to get the correct or whole picture…as to Kama and all the other
“principles” they must then have “seven aspects” in their turn,
as Kamas seventh highest aspect is LOVE as I see it…

---------------------------------

DTB Is not COMPASSION universal LOVE? A love for all
beings, and does it not imply the care for all, as members of our
great family?

--------------------------------------

What edition of the Mahatma letters do you quote from ?…since
there are today several editions, the latest being “in
chronological sequence” by Vicente Hao Chin from the Philippines,
published 1993…

--------------------------------------

[ BARKER I use DTB ]

--------------------------------------

Well that’s all for this morning…
Peter






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