Theos-Talk Archives (June 2003 Message tt00114)

Hi Dallas and all of you,

Thanks that helped me !
Very interesting text.

In the below, Q-estion and A-nswer sequences, the following A-nswer came:

"A. In such a case, the force of the tendencies set in motion
would in time break the link between the ego and his instrument
during some life-time, and the instrument with the momentum given
it would be an entity without a human soul. There are such
creatures in the world, human in form, but soul-less."

My view:
Yes... I have to say, that there is always a spark present. No one is
completely
"soul-less". God - Parabrahman is within. There is always the possibility of
'returning
back home'. And Karma works in mysterious ways unforseen by
even the intelligent human beings.

Take a look at the following:
It is a happy issue to have a lot money, so many say.
But, when you have say a billion dollars on
your bankaccount, - but - no one says, that
you ever will have the oppurtunity to use them.
Karmic forces unknown to you could actually prevent you from
ever using them.
Sometimes people loses their wallets !
And why ?


Or this story:
HEADLESSNESS

Recently I had a request, from a group of people who had
been studying my books for some years, for fresh material. I
knew that they did not need fresh material, and they had
only taken from existing books the things that amused or
interested them, not the material that was there. I therefore
paraphrased several dozen passages from these books, and put
them in a slightly different form. After typing, these were sent to
the group. Their reaction was almost to weep with delight at this
'new and exciting, really marvellous stuff'. They had already had
several hundred times as much material of this quality; they also
had this identical material in paraphrase, but this they believed to
be 'new'.
(Taken from Idries Shah "The Commanding Self").

* This is what we sometimes call headlessness.*

I think it is good to talk about Karma. When
we do so as students, we learn more rapidly why
we always suffer. We also can learn how to
better endure suffering, so it does'nt put us
so severely down.

The gifted children of today are one of
the best examples of the law of Karma as a reality,
This law is not a maybe - but a for REAL issue.

Feel free to comment or do your best...

from
M. Sufilight with a lot of Karma...eeehm... and some Rugrats carrying x-file
bags...







----- Original Message ----- 
From: <dalval14@earthlink.net>
To: "AA-Dal" <dalval14@earthlink.net>
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 2:35 PM
Subject: Theos-World Part I Karma Answers OCEAN Capt. XI


> Monday, June 16, 2003
>
> Part I Karma Answers OCEAN Capt. XI
>
>
> Karma And to Quest OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY Ch. 11
>
> by R Crosbie
> ------------------------------------
>
> CHAPTER XI KARMA
>
>
> DEFINITION of the word.
> An unfamiliar term.
> A beneficent law.
> How present life is affected by past acts of other lives.
> Each act has a thought at its root.
> Through Manas they react on each personal life.
> Why people are born deformed or in bad circumstances.
> The three classes of Karma and its three fields of operation.
> National and Racial Karma.
> Individual unhappiness and happiness.
> The Master's words on Karma.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Part I KARMA Answers by Robert Crosbie
>
> --------------
>
>
> Q. With regard to "the persistence of savagery"; are those in
> savage tribes souls of lesser experience?
>
> A. In the nature of evolution-an unfolding from within
> outwards-there must be souls of lesser experience, whose bodies
> and environment correspond to their so-far acquired nature. On
> the other hand there are diminishing physical tribes of which the
> Australian aborigines are an example, where the more advanced
> egos have incarnated in other races, leaving the use of that
> physical line to the less advanced. As the latter in due course
> leave the physical race, those remaining, being less capable,
> cause the physical strain to deteriorate, so that only the lowest
> class of intelligences of that tribe or race occupy such bodies.
> Finally, the physical race dies out through sterility, the egos
> connected with it having incarnated in other races.
>
>
> Q. What about the Mexicans?
>
> A. There are many classes of egos among the Mexicans as there are
> in every present-day race; the families are mixed, and races are
> mixed. In Mexico there are to be seen the results of a mixture of
> European blood with that of the decadent remains of ancient
> American civilizations; necessarily under karma, those who came
> from European strains and mixed with the native ones, are caught
> in the lines of their own causations and have to work it out by
> either eliminating the defects of the strain, or going down with
> it from bad to worse.
>
>
> Q. But the Mexicans show strong patriotism?
>
> A. In that respect they are no different from people of other
> races. Patriotism does not come from mere birth into any race,
> but from the karmic affinity of the ego for that race; the
> feeling is there in all such cases, hut the actions that flow
> from that feeling are not often understood, not wisely applied;
> the sense of separate ness rules there, as in all more or less
> ignorant "personalities" of every race.
>
>
> Q. Is there then such a thing as Intelligent Patriotism ?
>
> A. There must be, as the opposite to unintelligent patriotism
> which can he seen on every hand.
>
>
> Q. Could a definition of Intelligent Patriotism be given?
>
> A. The question is one of Intelligence as applied to patriotism.
> A very ignorant man may have a strong patriotic feeling which may
> be aroused to inconsiderate action by himself or through the
> incitement of others. A more intelligent man would have a wider
> range of perception and action and yet concur in national
> sentiment and action against other nations with what he as an
> individual would consider wrong as against another individual;
> both of these cases are basically wrong. A truly intelligent
> patriotism would consider the individual as an integral part of
> the nation to which he belonged; the nation as an integral part
> of the assemblage of nations which constitute humanity as a
> whole. As every individual is born into a physical body through
> parents of some race or nation, and thus into the world of men,
> the karma of each such birth indicates the opportunity of one so
> born to eradicate in himself the defects of the family through
> which he came, and through the family the defects of the nation,
> for national defects are the sum total of all the individuals
> composing it, and the eradication of these defects begins and
> ends with the individual. Intelligent patriotism would therefore
> consist in doing our whole duty in that station where our karma
> has placed us, to our family, and to humanity as being made up of
> individuals, families and nations, while recognizing all as being
> the same in kind and differing only in degree. If our family
> duties are well and wisely per formed, our duties to tile nation
> and to humanity would to a great extent take care of themselves.
> By "family duties" and "national duties" is not meant false
> attachments to family or nation as a means of pride,
> pleasure-hunting or sensuality, but cultivating and elevating the
> higher sentiments and emotions of ourselves and of our family and
> utilizing them for the performance of our duty to tile nation and
> humanity in general.
>
>
> Q. It seems to be a hopeless task?
>
> A. It seems hopeless because individuals will not apply the
> remedy in themselves; we would like to wait until the race has
> improved and then we would fail into line with it, but never has
> a race or people improved without strong and continued efforts by
> individuals who have seen a better way and exemplify and impart
> it. It was said of old that "a little leaven soon leaveneth the
> whole lump ;" those who have the "leaven" must first apply it in
> themselves before it can begin to work in others.
>
>
> Q. The chapter speaks of a deficient or bad ego; what does that
> mean?
>
> A. There are many classes of egos. We should remember all the
> time that egos are evolving; that some Were self-conscious beings
> when this world of ours began, and that others have become human
> beings since that beginning and up to the middle point of the
> Third Race. Besides, the fact that there are bad and deficient
> men in physical existence points to badness and deficiency in
> egos, for it is the egos who incarnate.
>
>
> Q. I have understood that the ego is immortal and spiritual in
> nature!
>
> A. The ego is spiritual and immortal in essential nature, but as
> he possesses the power to perceive and to act and exemplifies the
> law of action and reaction in himself, as he works from higher to
> lower planes of substance he becomes involved in the lower planes
> through attachment to them and suffers accordingly until he
> overcomes his unwisdom and asserts and uses his real nature on
> the lower planes. As egos, we are only partially operative in
> bodies; Manas is not yet fully employed by us as a race; each
> incarnation is but one aspect of our past existences, we have to
> make the link between higher and lower, while we are in a body.
>
>
> Q. What would be the outcome if an ego while in a body continued
> a course of degeneracy and evil for life after life!
>
> A. In such a case, the force of the tendencies set in motion
> would in time break the link between the ego and his instrument
> during some life-time, and the instrument with the momentum given
> it would be an entity without a human soul. There are such
> creatures in the world, human in form, but soul-less.
>
>
> Q. Are we drawing on all our Karmic store during any one life!
>
> A. In the life of worlds, races, nations, and individuals, Karma
> cannot act unless there is an appropriate instrument for its
> action, and until such instrument exists, that Karma related to
> it remains unexpended.
>
> While a man is experiencing phases of his past karma through
> body, conditions and environment, his other unexpended karma is
> held reserved until body, conditions and environment permit the
> unexpended karma to operate. Lapse of time does not cause any
> lessening of the force of karma, nor does it change its nature.
>
>
> Q. Must each life express only one phase or class of Karma?
>
> A. Not necessarily. Changes may occur in the instrument during
> one life so as to make it appropriate for a new class of karma.
> This may take place in two ways; (a) through intensity of thought
> and the power of a vow to think and do differently, and (b)
> through natural alterations due to the complete exhaustion of old
> causes.
>
>
> Q. What determines the karmic tendency of any one life?
>
> A. Birth into any sort of body to obtain the results of any sort
> of Karma is due to the preponderance of tendencies existing.
>
>
> Q. When one is born into the world with certain tendencies that
> are seen to be undesirable, what can be done to change them and
> what would be the e of such effort?
>
> A. Measures taken by an Ego to repress tendency, eliminate
> defects, and to counteract by setting up different causes, will
> alter the sway of Karmic tendency and shorten its influence, in
> accordance with the strength or weakness of the efforts expended
> in carrying out the measures adopted.
>
>
> Q. Different sorts of Karma were spoken of; what was meant by the
> statement?
>
> A. Karma may be of three sorts; (a) that which is presently
> operating in this life through the appropriate instruments; (b)
> that which is being made or stored up to be exhausted in the
> future; and (c) that which is held over from past lives and not
> operating yet because inhibited by the inappropriateness of the
> instrument in use by the Ego, or by the force of the Karma now
> operating.
>
>
> Q. Is the body and its circumstances the field of operation of
> Karma?
>
> A. There are three fields of operation of Karma, (a) the body and
> the circumstances; (b) the mind and intellect; and (c) the
> psychic and astral planes. As body, mind and soul have each a
> power of independent action, any one of these may exhaust,
> independently of the others, some Karmic causes more remote from
> or nearer to the time of their inception than those operating
> through other channels.
>
>
> Q. Are any beings free from Karma?
>
> A. None whatever; Karma operates on all things and all beings
> from the minutest conceivable atom up to the highest being. No
> spot in the manifested universe is exempt from its sway, for
> manifestation means action, and action brings its exact results.
> Karma is the inherent law of power to act in every being of every
> grade; in each case the power to act is exercised according to
> the degree of intelligence acquired. The Universe is embodied
> Consciousness.
>
>
> Q. Race-Karma, National Karma, and Family Karma have been spoken
> about; what do these terms mean?
>
> A. As all beings are the same in kind-that is, spiritual in
> essence and source-all are connected on inner planes, and each
> one affects all the rest in a helpful or hindering way. Race
> Karma influences each unit in the race through this law of cause
> and effect by distribution. National Karma operates on the
> members of a nation through the same law more concentrated.
> Family Karma governs only with a nation where the families have
> been kept pure and distinct; for in any nation where there is a
> mixture of family
> -as obtains in every Kali Yuga period-family karma is in general
> distributed over a nation. All men, flaying
> the same principles as constituents of their nature, are
> connected by both inner and outer principles of their being; they
> therefore affect each other in subtle and unperceived ways, as
> well as by the external ways which are ordinarily perceived.
>
>
> Q. If all beings of every grade are affected by the dynamic power
> of human thought and feeling, we, as human beings, must a the
> lower kingdoms which constitute the earth upon which we live?
>
> A. Such is the teaching. Cataclysms of nature are brought about
> by the separative and destructive effects of selfish and wrong
> thinking by human beings. A cataclysm may be traced to a physical
> cause such as internal fire and atmospheric disturbance, but
> these have been brought on by the disturbance created by the
> dynamic power of human thought. Some hint of this is to be found
> in the writings of St. Paul when he speaks of the whole of
> creation groaning in travail because of the iniquities of man.
>
>
> Q. Do all bunion beings have to suffer in such cataclysms?
>
> A. No. Egos who have no Karmic connection with a portion of the
> globe where a cataclysm is coming on, are kept without the
> latter's operation in two ways:
> (a) by repulsion acting on their inner nature which induces them
> to move elsewhere, or (h) by being warned by those who watch the
> progress of the world.
>
>
> Q. How can the actions of men produce convulsions of nature (p.
> 96)?
>
> A. Through their cumulative effect upon the psychic nature of
> elemental beings. Karma is the key-note of all conditions, for it
> governs the smallest atom as well as the highest spiritual being.
> The elementals of the mineral kingdom, and of the kingdoms below
> that (the elementals proper) are psychic embryos." Every thought
> of man upon being evolved passes into the inner world, and
> becomes an active entity by coalescing with an elemental-that is
> to say, with one of the semi-conscious forces of the kingdoms. It
> survives as an active intelligence-a creature of the mind's
> begetting. Thus a good thought is perpetuated as an active,
> beneficent power; an evil one as a maleficent demon. The
> automatically acting brain stores up only brute energies, and
> begets correlations that are unfruitful of benefit, at last
> bringing about convulsions in nature. It is analogous to
> combinations of chemicals produced by scientific
> minds-antagonistic elements held in leash, which at last a spark
> suffices to release and bring about terrific explosions.
>
>
> Q. And similarly, man's actions or Karma can bring about
> beneficial effects in the lower kingdoms of nature?
>
> A. It is man who is the real motive and directing power in this
> universe, for he is at the head, being self-conscious, with the
> power of acquiring qualities, of understanding the natures of all
> beings, and of manipulating the lower natures. It devolves on him
> so to use those natures as to bring about the best results for
> all the beings concerned in the stream of evolution which makes
> up this earth and solar system. Man has produced many
> combinations and transformations in the lower kingdoms, not
> possible to them of their un aided powers, which are beneficent.
>
>
> Q. Then man is a creator in a far wider sense than We are
> accustomed to think
>
> A. Undoubtedly. The impulse to action in the lower kingdoms
> originally proceeds from him. The conscious action of the lower
> kingdoms all proceeds from man. After the action there is always
> the reaction. The elements, the "air, water, fire and earth," or
> any portion or combination of these, all have their reactions
> upon us. We experience those reactions from the elements because
> of our attitude towards them and use of them, for we are the ones
> who induce them to act whether in a beneficent or maleficent way.
> Tornadoes, earthquakes, sufferings of any kind such as wars or
> strife, either in the elements or amongst men, are all produced
> by man.
>
>
> Q. You spoke of the "automatically acting brain"; is there
> another kind of action possible with our brains?
>
> A. Certainly. In the one case there is but brute force stored up
> and flung out without any transmutation of that brute energy into
> higher forms of dynamics. In the other, the intellection of the
> truly scientifically occupied brain, there is the evolution of a
> sublimated form of spiritual energy which, cosmically speaking,
> is productive of illimitable results for good. The human brain
> may be used as an exhaustless generator of higher forms of energy
> from lower. The adept does not create anything new; he only
> transforms the materials in nature The one wastes and debases the
> creative power; the other conserves and elevates the natures of
> all.
>
>
> Q. There would seem to be no limit to any one's responsibility
>
> A. There isn't. Whenever and whatever any one thinks or does, he
> cannot do so without affecting other beings, whether human beings
> or beings below or above, as every action is felt throughout the
> whole of the universe in some degree. He gets the reaction in his
> own moral nature from the lines of his mental action; and at the
> same time he will he physically acting along the same lines,
> affecting others for good or evil both on the inner and the outer
> planes of action; then he gets the physical reaction.
>
>
> Q. Then there is never any injustice?
>
> A. There is no injustice. What we see as apparent injustice seems
> so because we do not see the causes which have produced the
> present ill effects. If we have no knowledge of our own real
> nature and the Law of Karma that is inherent in it, then the
> feeling can only be that we have received injustice, and we
> harbor hatred and resentments. What prevents our understanding
> these things is mainly that we do not know what we are here for.
> We look at things from a one-life basis, and finding ourselves in
> this life we imagine it is something we had nothing to do with.
> Seeing others, according to our view, more fortunate than
> ourselves, we want to know why, and no answer being possible on
> the basis we have assumed, we assume that we are receiving
> injustice. If Karma is the doctrine of responsibility,
> Reincarnation is the doctrine of hope. The two go together. The
> reason we are on earth, according to the Occult teaching: we are
> not here because of our virtues; we are here because of our
> defects. The "personality" is really the working off of defects.
> If we do not learn what the object of life is, and don't do the
> work, then we are only creating more defects to adjust, and more
> trouble for ourselves.
>
>
> Q. Who is to be the judge of a man's motives in what he feels and
> what he does?
>
> A. The man himself. But he must forget himself if he is to judge
> truly. No judge can be impartial if he has any self-interest in
> his own decisions. So if we have any self-interest in our
> decisions we cannot judge our motives; we can only judge them
> aright when we seek nothing for ourselves. The best guide and the
> greatest protection any man can have is a firm desire to benefit
> humanity and seek nothing for himself.
>
>
> Q. By punishing those who have earned punishment, do we not aid
> Karma, and become an agent of justice?
>
> A. No. The Bible has many occult sayings. You know the one which
> says, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord (Law). The
> Law takes care of its own. We do not have to make ourselves
> instruments of vengeance. We have in our modern civilization our
> means of taking vengeance; but as a matter of fact our means are
> errant, imperfect, and injurious. The taking of the life of a
> fellow being for having killed another, is no more justified when
> done by a number of men than was the first murder. That is wrong,
> but to sequester the murderer so that he can not continue to
> injure others, is quite another story.
>
>
> Q. Do we injure others with our hatred?
>
> A. No man can feel hatred and not injure others.
>
>
> Q. But if our own thoughts are such that there is no hatred in
> us, we would not be affected by the hatred of another?
>
> A. That is the whole story. If a man thinks and feels toward his
> fellow-men without either hatred or revenge in him, nothing of
> that kind can touch him.
>
>
> Q. If one affected by the action of another has no desire to
> injure that other, does that mitigate the action for that other?
>
> A. Of course it does. But there are two propositions there. The
> one who has been injured is reaping what he has sown or he could
> not have been injured. But he may, by his change of nature and
> attitude and his desire to cease injuring others, refuse to do
> any evil in return. But the one who inflicts or still holds the
> injury gets all the reactions that flow from that attitude. He
> has not changed; he is still the same nature; still has the same
> desire. Oftentimes when one does injury to another and gets no
> return in kind, he is more incensed than ever. You cannot make
> another feel differently unless he wants to. So, while we may be
> thinking kindly of another, we cannot change his feelings. He
> alone can do that. So we might help him and we might not; hut at
> all events we get the benefit of the effect of our own beneficent
> attitude. If we do not affect the other favorably it is because
> he is so infected (not affected) that we cannot help him. It all
> depends on the nature of the recipient; on the "nature of the
> beast." Take a rattlesnake. No man, however kind his feelings,
> could change that snake's nature.
>
>
> Q. But if it is our Karma to have bad and revengeful feelings and
> thoughts, then we cannot help acting that way?
>
> A. Yes we can. Karma is present action as well as the present
> effect of former acting. While we may not always be able to
> affect the attitude of another, we can, as just said, always
> affect our own attitude. If we could not we would be mere
> machines, mere creatures of our past, not Creators in the
> present. We ought to know that, for anybody knows better than to
> inflict injury. He recognizes what is harmful to another, but if
> he is so selfish that he does not care, he becomes a destructive
> force, not a creative one; and must take the reaction. "Evil must
> be in the world, but woe to him by whom evil comes." Woe to those
> who make themselves the agent through whom evil Karma acts,
> because it is their own nature that is played upon in that case.
>
>
> Q. What does it mean to be Karma-less?
>
> A. All that is Karma-less is that in us which lives and thinks,
> the Perceiver, the Real Man. He is the institutor and the
> experiencer of all Karma. There is no Karma unless he makes it.
> He is not changed by Karma, neither made greater nor less; but
> while attached to action (Karma) or in a body and circumstances
> created by him, he experiences all that flows from the actions to
> which he is attached, until he ceases from the attachment to that
> kind of action. He gets whatever experiences his actions in that
> body bring him.
>
>
> Q. The OCEAN says that certain entities through wickedness are
> annihilated. Does that refer to the Eco?
>
> A. How could it, if the Ego, the real Man, is not affected
> permanently by action? Let us look at it in this way: An Ego, or
> spiritual being, has been so wholly wicked in his actions for
> many incarnations that there is not a kind thought or feeling of
> any kind; nothing but brutal and selfish thoughts, producing only
> pain and suffering in the world. His works are destroyed: the
> personality built up by that kind of thought and feeling. Nothing
> of that personality can be attached to or assimilated by the
> spiritual being. His attitude having been wholly against the
> rest, the motion of the whole must at last crush that kind of
> works (Karma) out of existence. That does not destroy the Ego,
> but it destroys his works, his accumulation of experiences. It
> throws him out of his place, and he has to start again from where
> he was before his evil courses began, for that is where he be
> longs. The Ego cannot be annihilated; but his incarnations may be
> of such a nature as to be lost and he be thrown out of a certain
> stream and have to go back to the place where he left the line
> and begin again. But the real Man remains and his real works;
> that is, the acquired wisdom and the acquired experience. He may
> lose a lot of leaves out of the Book of Life, but He remains.
>
>
> Q. But there must be Karma to bring that Ego back' again?
>
> A. He gets the Karma of having to go back to the mental deposits
> stored up in long previous incarnations, whether on this globe or
> some other, and starting afresh on a line based on those mental
> de posits. He has lost a vast amount of time and effort, and
> experienced a vast amount of fruitless suffering- fruitless of
> good, that is, its only effect being destructive of all his
> works. And he has to overcome the tendencies he has engendered,
> when he comes into incarnation again-the tendencies to repeat.
>
>
> Q. This seems somewhat confusing.
>
> A. There should be no confusion if you keep in mind the idea of
> the Individuality-the permanent spiritual being, the
> reincarnating Ego, which is the Triad of Atma-Buddhi-Manas. Lower
> Manas-the personality- is the outlook upon physical existence
> which Higher Manas has, as the result of his thought and action
> on the physical plane of life. He may change that outlook, or he
> may lose it, and begin a new series of efforts; or in some cases
> he may be thrown out for that incarnation or for a great period
> and have to incarnate in a new period, under conditions of
> ignorance instead of knowledge. That, too, is his Karma; the evil
> results engendered by his own former actions. The only basis he
> would have would be the tendencies he had en gendered; and these
> he would have to conquer.
>
>
> Q. Cannot this fate be avoided?
>
> A. Only by a change of basis; the adoption of a better course of
> action. Any attempt to "avoid" the re suits of our own actions
> only results in a stronger re action; because by attempting to
> avoid, we merely store up or hold back that force which would
> naturally have exhausted itself in its own period.
>
>
> End of PART 1 -- Karma Answers Robert Crosbie
>
>
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