Theos-Talk Archives (May 2003 Message tt00134)

In a message dated 04/29/03 5:29:32 AM, mail@katinkahesselink.net writes:

Hi Leon,


I am amazed at how sure you seem of yourself here. I have tried to 

read up (today) on all the messages in this thread and it seems to me 

you equate awareness with thought and then conclude that thought is 

never still. 

LHM: I think you have misinterpreted what I said. I didn't say that thought 
can never be still. I said that thought itself cannot be stilled (meaning 
stopped). To have a still thought -- like contemplating and pure sky is still 
thinking. If you stop thinking, even about the nature of nothing or stillness 
itself (such as meditation without a seed), you have, in effect, begun to 
kill your mind, and eventually, this will result in a disassociation with the 
self. 


KH: Well, for me thought is still, sometimes. Sometimes it is still, 

sometimes it is a murmer, sometimes I get lost in streams of thought 

and awareness is totally gone, though there is thinking. All the 

theories in the world won't change that experiential fact. Wether my 

awareness is at that moment focussed on buddhi or manas or whatever, 

I don't know. But thought is still, sometimes. 

LHM: Yes... A thought may be still -- meaning concentrated on a single, 
unmoving image or idea (such as contemplating a calm ocean) for an extended 
period. But, nevertheless, that "still" contemplation is still a "thought" 
in itself. Thus, the mind may be stilled, but the thinking cannot be stopped 
without losing consciousness. The aim of all yoga is to maintain continuous 
awareness (the Buddha said "constant vigilance") no matter what level of 
consciousness one is on, whether asleep or awake.

KH: Then again: never two thoughts at a time? I have read somewhere that 

one of the aims of occultism is to be able to be conscious of various 

things at the same time. Yes, I found the quote, from the Inner Group 

Teachings:

>> Inner Group, p. 64

Then the transference of a sensation passing from any organ to the 

consciousness is almost simultaneous, if your attention is fixed on 

it; but if any noise distracts your attention, then it will take a 

fraction more of a second before it reaches your consciousness. The 

occultist should train himself to receive and transmit, along the 

line of the seven scales of his consciousness, every impression - or 

impressions - simultaneously. He who reduces the intervals of 

physical time the most has made the most progress. >>

http://www.katinkahesselink.net/mahatmas.htm

LHM: Here, I think they are referring to the different channels of sensory 
attention. Being conscious of the state of the body, for example, is not 
necessarily thinking about it. Awareness of "impressions" and thinking are 
two different functions of the self consciousness. Thus, while we can only 
think of one thought at a time, we can be aware of all the impressions of our 
senses simultaneously. Don't we ordinarily see and hear simultaneously, and 
match words synchronously with the motion of the lips? At the same time we 
should be thinking about what is being said, without letting our mind wander. 


KH: Stillness of the mind is something the classical theosophical 

literature doesn't talk about much. Which is why I asked you for a 

reference to where Judge does talk about it. I am asking again. This 

question is highly relevant as it touches on how we can include the 

insights from Jiddu Krishnamurti and Zen Buddhism into our personal 

theosophies. 

LHM: I do not remember where I read (some 20 years ago) Judge's remark that 
we must "never stop thinking." It could have been in Letters That Have 
Helped Me, the Ocean, or in one of his articles or essays. I have never 
forgotten this advice, and also considered that it referred particularly to 
controlled or contemplative thinking. When Patanjali talked about "Hindering 
the modifications of the thinking principle" I don't think he meant to stop 
thinking, but simply to control the thoughts that spring up unconsciously. 
Thus, stilling the mind -- so as to be able to continuously concentrate on a 
single idea -- without being distracted by the constant chatter of the 
ungoverned mind. This is similar to the allegory of taking charge of the 
Bull in the Zen Buddhist koan. As I understood him, Krishnamurti also taught 
this idea of being constantly in control and aware of ones thoughts. This 
would apply, even to the thought of the emptiness, or the abstract motion of 
the void, when in the highest level of Buddhi consciousness. 


KH: I agree that thinking should be controlled. But I don't see how 

stillness in the mind would be a problem in controlling the mind. 

When you write about seedless contemplation - doesn't that mean 

contemplation without an object to contemplate on? Which is a 

description of an empty mind, IMO. For me formless "thought" implies 

thoughtlessness (in an intelligent way, paradoxically). Every thought 

is a thing, a form. 

LHM: Not necessarily. When we are thinking of the pure light of the highest 
consciousness, we are not thinking of the form of the light but only of its 
purity and unity. Thus, abstract thought, such as contemplating the 
zero-point and being aware of its emptiness, doesn't have any form... Yet, it 
is still thinking. We cannot imagine the mind being empty of thought, even 
when we are thinking of the emptiness itself. Therefore, "formless (or 
seedless) thought" is not thoughtlessness, but thoughtfulness of the highest 
order.

Best wishes,

Leon




Katinka

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, leonmaurer@a... wrote:

> 

> In a message dated 04/18/03 10:28:21 AM, mail@k... writes:

> 

> >> As WQJ said, in "Letters That Have Helped Me," we must never 

stop 

> >> thinking... Even in the deepest meditation. 

> >

> >Could you quote a bit more precisely? This is mind staggering to 

me. 

> >I mean, I do believe that thought is necessary, but to never stop 

> >thinking... That is like saying the body should never sit still. 

> >

> >Katinka

> 

> The comparison is invalid... Since the body (even of the Buddha) 

can never 

> "sit still"... As everything in it is in constant motion. 

Including the mind 

> -- as a coenergetic and, thus, material field (or subtle body) of 

> consciousness surrounding our zero-point center of awareness. The 

latter is 

> the only aspect of universal reality which remains forever still -- 

as the 

> receptor, detector, and comparator of all motion or action... And, 

although 

> its position in 3D physical space can be changed, it always 

maintains its 

> fixed position relative to Absolute space... Since, it IS coadunate 

with the 

> "laya-point" or "center" of Absolute space itself -- which is 

everywhere.

> 

> The mind, as an ever changing field of consciousness, that is one 

of the 

> seven fold aspects of our nature, and is an integral part of every 

eternal 

> triune Monad -- has only one function. And, that is "thought" -- 

as both the 

> instrument and the guidance of our awareness and will. Whenever we 

are 

> awake, and consciously aware of ourselves and its relationship to 

our 

> environment, the mind is filled with a single thought of one sort 

or another 

> from one moment to the next (and can never be empty). These 

thoughts can be 

> either conscious (attended), or unconscious (unattended). Thus the 

mind, so 

> filled with thoughts, must never be allowed to go off on its own 

and create 

> thoughts that we are unaware of and which might unconsciously or 

consciously 

> govern our physical actions against the will of our spiritual self. 

> 

> The idea put forth by Judge (with reference to the Yoga Aphorisms 

of 

> Patanjali) was that such thoughts must always be under our 

control... So that 

> they not only would not run away wildly and distract our attention 

with 

> fantasy and dangerous ideas (not in accord with nature) that could 

lead to 

> harmful action... But also, that such "wrong thoughts" should be 

replaced 

> with positive or "right thoughts" that relate directly to the 

conscious 

> control of all our activities... Whether in mind when thinking, or 

of body 

> when acting, or reacting in accord with our will or intent 

> 

> This practice of consciously controlled thought (that is always 

within our 

> scope of awareness) -- if engaged in continuously -- prevents evil 

or wrong 

> thoughts from entering our memory, and thereby governing our 

unconscious or 

> impulsive actions or reactions, or feeding our prejudices and 

biases. 

> 

> Thus, individual freedom of self, or "enlightenment" and self 

determination, 

> requires constant attention to and conscious control of all our 

thoughts -- 

> including the thought of emptiness ("0") or the "ultimate division 

of time." 

> (The Zen koan of the "Ten Bulls" allegorically pictures and 

explains this 

> process of attaining mastery of one's mind.) See:

> http://www.cs.sfu.ca/people/ResearchStaff/jamie/personal/10_Bulls/

> Title_Page.html

> Patanjali's Yoga Aphorisms, gives us the practical application of 

this 

> process. As, the Voice of the silence metaphorically describes the 

different 

> stages of our development along the path.

> 

> This practice is the only way that one can achieve "perfection in 

the 

> performance of action" (The nature of an Adept) -- even when in the 

deepest 

> meditation while thinking about the true reality of 

either "something" (with 

> a seed) or "nothing" (without a seed). Remember, to be thinking of 

nothing, 

> or "emptiness," does not mean to "still our thoughts." Because 

directed 

> thinking is a willed action, thinking of nothing is essentially no 

different 

> from thinking of something. Their only difference, catagorically, 

is that 

> one is "full" of forms and the other is "empty" of form. Thus, 

thinking 

> always requires thoughts, and thoughts always require willful and 

mindful 

> attention... That is, if one is to be fully in control of oneself 

or, as the 

> Buddha said of himself, become "One who is perpetually awake." 

> 

> Ordinarily, the only time we usually have no capability of 

consciously willed 

> thinking, is when we are in deep sleep or dead. However, this 

applies solely 

> to those who are not yet fully enlightened and, thereby, not yet of 

the 

> nature of an Adept... Who, it is said, is never asleep, but is 

always awake 

> in the higher (Buddhi) mind -- even when the body sleeps -- or 

after death. 

> 

> Therefore, to arrive at such a state of total wakefulness requires 

one to be 

> always aware of what one is thinking, and, concurrently, what one 

is doing as 

> a result of such thinking. This is the essence of free will. Thus, 

one must 

> never stop thought. Meaning, to be "eternally vigilant" (as the 

eternal 

> "witness") both within and without -- as the Buddha, WQJ, and HPB 

(as well as 

> myself and some others :-) advise. 

> 

> This practice, if engaged in diligently, will eventually open our 

mind to our 

> constant attention -- so that, when we are dreaming or in deep 

sleep, we will 

> still be consciously (lucidly) aware of its actions. And thus, 

able to 

> intentionally change our thoughts and our self determined actions, 

at will, 

> on any plane of consciousness we focus our attention on. This 

expansion of 

> our awareness results in the ultimate alignment or centering of all 

our inner 

> natures (that is the goal of enlightenment) -- and makes us "The 

master of 

> our fate" (or karma). It is also the condition of the state of 

pure 

> creativity -- since all of natures hidden (or occult) secrets, and 

subtle 

> harmonies, are thus opened for inspection and reflection. 

> 

> LHM