Theos-Talk Archives (March 2003 Message tt00418)

Gerald Schueler <gschueler@earthlink.net> wrote:

<<<[Leon] Not according to my presumption; That the upper three planes are 
the first state after the unconditioned or "sleeping" Cosmos wakes up out of 
Pralaya.>>>

[Jerry] As I understand it, Blavatsky calls it "pralaya" when the 7 globes on 
the lower 4 planes of any planetary chain become "asleep" or dormant, and 
"mahapralaya" when all 12 globes on the 7 planes are dormant. In the same 
way, a "manvantara" is the duration of the 7 globes on the lower 4 planes in 
active manifefstation, and "mahamanvantara" for the whole 12 globes on the 7 
planes. Whether we are in manvantaric expression or pralayic dormancy, all 7 
planes still exist as such - it is the planetary chain of globes, that wake 
and sleep.

[Leon] Agreed, in essence, although greatly simplified with relation to the 
true reality -- which is a bit more complex single (coadunate but not 
consubstantial) multidimensional unity that cannot be conceptualized in 
words. Also, note that there are three logos, and we were discussing only 
the forms of the third logos.

However, since we have to consider the analogous and corresponding position 
between the globes on different levels -- when the higher globes go to sleep, 
all other fields that are dependent on them, also go into pralaya with them. 
My consideration of the sleep or waking states related to conditioned or 
unconditioned reality was speaking only of the Cosmic level. It should be 
noted, therefore, that when the higher globes go into pralaya, the higher 
planes that they exist on also disappear, along with all the lower planes 
that are dependent on them. The problem here, of understanding the 
relationship between Globes and planes, might be better visualized through 
study of the following cross sectional field diagrams: 
http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/invlutionflddiagnotate.gif
http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html

Note that these symbolic diagrams can be related, corresponsingly, to either 
spiritual, astral or material involution's (descent of triune monads) which 
are analogous no matter from what level we look at them. Also, it should be 
considered that each globe, which cannot exist independently from its triune 
relationship with inferior and superior globes, has its own inner planes. 
That's why Blavatsky, said the planes were either 3, 5, 7, 10, 12, 14, etc., 
and was very vague about the globes and rounds except when she spoke of the 
planetary chain or the human root races on the 4 physical planes. Note that 
there is a pralaya between each globe and each race analogous to the pralaya 
between each lifetime, etc. 

As an aid in following the logic of this field structure, one can trace the 
single line that creates the entire array, starting from the Cosmic center, 
by following the arrows, and creating the entire descending order without 
lifting the drawing pen from the page. This signifies everything that is was 
or will be, as emanating in a single ray of force from a single point of 
spinergy and whose structure is identical no matter what plane of zero-point 
we originate from. This implies that the planes are zero or "laya" point 
levels of existence, while the globes are the energy-substance or 
consciousness fields (Mahat, Atma, Buddhi, Manas, etc.) that surround them -- 
that originate from their spinergy's (Fohat, etc.)

<<< After that stage, the initial three planes involves into the four lower 
planes to make the total seven planes of conditioned reality (actually 14 
planes, ultimately -- since "conditions" imply duality's and there are, 
then, seven higher and seven lower planes). >>>

[Jerry] I have never heard of a 14-plane model. Manifestation on each plane 
is already dualistic.

[Leon] See the fractal field diagram on the Cosmic level. Count the inner 
coadunate and coenergetic fields. This is the meaning of the Cosmogenesis 
formula in the Book of Dzyan (Stanza IV, verse 3) "The 3, the 1, the 4, the 
1, the 5, the twice 7, the sum total" = 14. 

To get a much deeper idea of how the lines, planes and numbers relate -- 
inscribe (in your minds eye) a transparent octahedron (diamond or double 
pyramid) within each descending spherical Monad. And, if you can, rotate the 
entire 3-D image, and observe the entire array from different angles -- to 
see how their "houses" are formed and interrelate, as well as see all the 
ancient occult symbology. Also note that the triple monad spherical (3D) 
cross section (2D) contains the shape of all the Arabic numerals from 1 to 10.

<<<The non dual "noumenal" is that laya point of origination on which is 
spinning the "motion of life" and its "information content" (memory of all 
past lives and their experiences) -- out of which the phenomenal universe 
emanates and involves.>>>

[Jerry] The theory of phenomena as effect and noumena as cause has logic 
problems. The theory of nonduality as the cause of duality (ie., the One and 
the Many) also has logic problems. To avoid this, Blavatsky called it the 
"causeless cause" but this itself is not logical and seems an attempt to have 
it both ways. Causality per se requires time -- it is a time-dependent 
process. Nonduality is beyond or outside of time (ie., timeless) and so 
causality cannot logically apply to it. THERE IS NO CAUSE FOR THE MANIFESTED 
GLOBES AND PLANES OTHER THAN KARMA. This is because it is all mayavic 
illusion with absolutely no inherent existence to any of it.

[Leon] That's just a nihilistic delusion of exoteric Buddhists -- since karma 
is "action" which is the source of all phenomena... And, that action, in 
essence, is the eternal motion of the unmanifest or abstract non linear 
spinning force around the absolute zero-point (which, in itself, is the only 
"non existence"). But, its spin force, angular momentum or "spinergy" is the 
only true "rootless" and "unconditioned existence." As Buddha said, "Nothing 
comes from nothing." Thus, the principle of cycles and periodicity that 
underlay the laws of karma must have a basis in "something." And, that 
"something" whether or not rootless in itself, is the basis of all further 
logical field constructions. 

Thus, the dimensionless and frictionless zero-point whose inherent nature is 
to spin on infinite non polar axes at infinite degrees of abstract motion are 
fundamental propositions that are the rootless root of all the logic that 
explains all further universal involution and evolution. HPB made that 
perfectly clear when she said in introduction to the SD, that the entire 
system falls apart if we can't accept the three fundamental principles as 
being absolute and immutable. The second fundamental principle of law based 
on cycles and periodicity fully implies the existence of the zero-point 
spinergy -- which is the only basis the logic of the premise of such laws, as 
well as their logical differentiation's, can rest upon. 

Therefore, the words "mayavic illusion" are just meaningless jargon -- unless 
it refers to how we think of reality, rather than the actual reality itself 
-- which must be noumenal in the Absolute, as abstract spin motion... And, 
have an "eternal" existence either as the unmanifest root of karma, or as the 
"temporally" emanated or manifested phenomenal fields (globes) of vibrational 
energy (the expression of karma). 

Linear or manifested Time (as a measure of change) only begins when the non 
linear spinergy forces manifest into liner energies that can change their 
vibrational patterns of Sturm und Drang -- due to conscious intervention by 
Cosmic Builders, and later, by each individual sentient being traveling 
through time on their manifest karmic paths. The dynamic vibrational 
patterns of change, whether harmonious or disharmonious are the root cause of 
Karmic justice. 

Thus, the illusion of Maya is thinking that everything is standing still and 
unchanging, or not coming and going, or that the sensed forms are separate 
from each other in essence, and not of dependent arising, or that the 
disharmonious vibrational energy patterns we cause are not permanent (until 
we harmonize them, and thus, reduce them back to their original unconditioned 
spinergy). 

Actually, those patterns of past karma remain in the Akasha or primary 
circles of our individual spinergy, and are the Skandas that determine our 
future karma. Even the scientific laws of symmetry and conservation of 
energy/mass reflect these fundamental truths. Both Blavatsky and the Buddha 
explained all that thoroughly -- although secondary teachers who followed 
them have much distorted the real meanings of both Maya and Karma. And, even 
have misinterpreted the actual mechanisms of reincarnation, and what 
constitutes the transcending of karma and the attainment of enlightenment, or 
Buddhahood. 

<<<This potentially infinite information content can be 
related to the infinite patterns of force possible -- due to the potentially 
infinite velocities of fundamental spin on an infinite number of axes in non 
frictional, Absolute space. Such, unconditioned reality is, therefore, 
beyond all possibilities of imagination or scientific observation and proof. 
Yet it must remain the fundamental assumption or proposition upon which all 
conditioned reality is based.>>>

[Jerry] Agreed. To call it an assumption is fine.

[Leon] Glad you agree -- since, as I explained above, there cannot be any 
logical construction or mathematics without fundamental propositions or 
assumptions. These are like the different fundamental propositions of 
parallel lines that define Euclidean, Spherical and Rheimian geometry's. The 
beauty of the theosophical propositions (or assumptions, if you will) is that 
they extend from zero to infinity, and include everything in between. 
Therefore, there is only one consistent metaphysics that includes all of the 
sciences, geometry's, topologies and numerical mathematics, all the 
philosophies, and all the religions. Nothing is left out, and everything 
that exists temporally or eternally, including their noumena and their 
phenomena, can be explained logically and consistently (with the latest 
scientific findings and mathematical proofs of Superstring/M-brane theory).
See: http://superstringtheory.com/ 

<<<The zero-point of origin is the Absolute non dimensional, non motional, 
center on which the Life Force of the unconditioned reality (Cosmos in 
Pralaya) is spinning.>>>

[Jerry] Another unprovable assumption. I dislike the word "center" here 
because it implies a spacial positioning that doesn't really exist. A 
geometric point has no mass, but it does have spacial positioning.

Well, we explained all that above. If you dislike the word center, then what 
do you call the dimensionless point around which any wheel turns? How can a 
zero-point which, by definition -- since it exists alone and can be anywhere 
and everywhere -- have "spatial positioning"? Where's the logic in that? 
What directional or "metric" space can there for a point that is its own 
Absolutely Empty space? That's what is meant by "Sunyata" or "voidness" of 
the absolute reality that neither exists nor doesn't exist. How can we prove 
any of that -- except subjectively in our own higher spiritual consciousness 
and Buddhi-mind? (The trick in taking that correct subjective viewpoint is 
to realize that the spiritual consciousness is that zero-point at the center 
of the triune monadic field of Atma Buddhi Manas, and to be clearly aware of 
the reality surrounding it.) 

<<< There cannot be motion without non motion as its 
referential basis. >>>

[Jerry] Agreed.

[Leon] But have you got it yet? This agreement is all the justification 
needed to establish the fundamental existence of the "zero point center" of 
every spinning force -- which in turn is the fundamental condition of karma 
underlying everything else that happens in the Universe. You've just 
corroborated the three fundamental principles upon which the entire 
theosophical (and ABC) metaphysics rests. Thank you.

<<< Thus, we have the three gunas of Tamas (non motion or 
inaction), Rajas (motion or action) and Sattva (equal and opposite 
action-reaction, neutrality, or harmony). This is the root basis of karmic 
law. >>>

[Jerry] OK, but where do these gunas come from? Are they inherently real? or 
conditionally real? They must be conditionally real, because they are 
dependent. As is karma itself.

[Leon] They are both. The "static" zero point is Tamas. The fundamental 
unconditioned spinergy in harmonious abstract motion is Sattva. The 
conditioned globes and all their action potentials are Rajas. Thus, the 
three Gunas are built into the Absolute void itself. Thus, the unconditioned 
and the conditioned are inseparable. Therefore, self dependency and 
interdependency go hand in hand.

<<< Therefore, the only way to transcend karma and attain enlightenment, or 
a state of extended Samadhi, is to achieve Sattva. This takes an act of will 
to reverse one's past and present disharmonious karmic actions. >>>

[Jerry] Transcending karma means transcending all 3 gunas as well; and both 
harmonious and disharmonious karmic actions have to be let go. I don't see 
how this is possible unless the whole concept of a personal separate self is 
also let go. Without a self, there is nothing for karma or gunas to apply to.

[Leon] Not necessarily. How can we let go of the self, when the self is the 
zero-point center of our karmic skandas (which are only one small part of the 
spinergy representing Krishna or Adi Buddha whose skandas and karma is 
infinite)? All we can do to transcend our personal karma is to take on the 
overriding karma of that Absolute consciousness -- which means spending 
eternity as a Bodhisattva, and adjusting all the past bad karma generated by 
ourselves by helping and teaching everyone else. That's the pay back for 
enlightenment. There's no free lunch. But, isn't that the karma of the 
Buddha, himself? That's the action Path, unless we just want to cop out and 
spend the rest of the Manvantara in Nirvana, and then start over from the 
beginning -- maybe as a spark in someone's eye in the next Manvantara. For 
me, that's a drag. I'd rather stick around and hang out with the Masters who 
seem to have lots of fun doing what they do. Have you got a better way? :-) 

<<<I am speaking of the lower "animal self" -- as contrasted with the higher 
Self which "conquers it" by taking over the guidance of one's actions when 
one has achieved enlightenment. That higher Self or consciousness of our 
individual spiritual ray of the Absolute, is no illusion, but the final 
attainment of Mastery over all of lower Nature -- including one's own 
"vehicles." >>>

[Jerry] OK, but our so-called higher Self (atma-buddhi) cannot be a "final 
attainment" else what about paramatman? to say nothing of the nondual Monad. 
The very fact that atma-buddhi can be transcended strongly suggests that it 
cannot be "final."

[Leon] "Final" -- only insofar as we have conquered the lower animal self, 
and can thenceforth be totally awake in our higher Atman or monadic Self -- 
which cannot exist without both Buddhi and Manas. To go on to Paramatma 
cannot occur until we have experienced this entire manvantara cycle of Atma 
in its Seventh Round and Race. Glad you agree that the Self no matter how 
high it ascends in its infinite spinergy, is more or less eternal enough to 
reach into Paramatma... And, as HPB suggests, even possibly further -- in 
endless cycles, that are even beyond the comprehension of the highest Masters 
of Wisdom in this cycle of Brahma's life. 

<<<From then on, the choice of one's vehicle (no matter what level, from 
Brahma to Bodhisatva) is entirely self determined. And, that all depends on 
an act of will which can only be applied by a living conscious entity that 
exists separate from all other conscious entities -- yet each consisting as a 
singular or individual ray of the primal source of universal consciousness -- 
like an individual coherent ray of photonic light radiating from a spherical 
point source, such as a carbon arc. Once emitted, that ray is on a separate 
path from all other rays. And can only return to the source by direct 
reflection. >>>

[Jerry] OK

<<<Therefore, "When the mind becomes smooth like a mirror, one can see 
reflected in it one's real [eternal] self origin and self existence." That 
is the aim and purpose of one-pointed concentration, or meditation "without a 
seed." >>>

<<<Thus, the lower, animal self (human) is lifted up to merge with the higher 
Self (Brahman) -- who is a singular ray of the eternal Absolute SELF 
(Parabrahman).>>>

[Jerry] The lower self is transcended, not lifted up. There is no merging. 
The lower self is left behind. When consciousness is focused on the higher 
self, there is no awareness at all of any lower self. In the same way that 
the physical body cannot (usually) merge with the mind, the mind cannot 
(usually) merge with the spirit (ie., only a Buddha or very high Bodhisattva 
can do this).

[Leon] Left behind, yes, but still merged in the spinergy of the higher self. 
How else could Buddha know all his past lives? It's not the mind or soul 
which does the merging, but the memories of its past experience. Ultimate 
wisdom of the ultimate Master is based on a full knowledge of all previous 
experience and consequent learning. When a master is conscious of his higher 
self, he is still capable of carrying on the actions and being totally aware 
of the lower animal self -- so long as he has an animal body to function in. 
He would be no Master if he couldn't switch his conscious concentration from 
one field to the other at will. 

Lifting one's consciousness up to a higher level zero-point does not displace 
or destroy the lower fields and their zero-points of consciousness. When we 
dream of flying, the physical body has merged with the mental body and we 
experience ourselves as a physical body in the dream. If you practice lucid 
dreaming, this is self evident. How do we explain erotic dreams that lead to 
actual physical orgasm? But, then, weren't we speaking of being an 
enlightened Buddha or Bodhisattva when we transcend the lower self completely 
-- and, therefore, place it entirely under the control and guidance of our 
higher self? 

<<<Thus; "There are no discontinuities or empty spaces in the 
manifest universe" -- which is inseparable from the unmanifest universe as 
well as their joint father, the unborn and unknown Absolute reality (or 
zero-point which is everywhere). Esoterically, even beyond or behind that 
point, occultists see an infinite series of possible negative turning 
universes that counterbalances the karma of these positive turning universes. 
(But that's another story beyond the scope of our immediate concern.:-) >>>

[Jerry] I can't agree that there are no discontinuities. They exist, as do 
randomness and chaos. "Absolute reality" is a meaningless phrase to me (I 
don't think that such a thing exists as such). I believe that all reality is 
relative; our reality includes anything that we can experience. I assume that 
by "Absolute reality" you mean that which exists beyond/behind spirit. I 
would prefer to call this nonduality, or even Beness.

[Leon] Guess you just haven't got it yet. ;-) Am I talking in a void? Have 
you ever experienced a discontinuity, a chaos or a randomness? If you say 
yes, how did you know? What did they feel like? Is all that's "real" only 
what you can experience with your limited physical senses? If that's what 
you believe, then what's the point in even discussing the logical basis of 
any kind of transcendent reality? If all reality is relative, then how can 
there be an Absolute reality in which those relative realities exist? What 
you're saying here is just the opposite of what you agreed to above and what 
both HPB and the Buddha said. What is "beness" or "non duality" -- if not 
"Absolute Reality" -- which is absolute consciousness -- which is the 
zero-point around which all relative existence spins and bubbles? In this 
view, the relative is absolute and the absolute is relative. Therefore, 
"nothing" and "something" can never be separated. That's the essense of 
Advaita or "non duality" -- which is pure theosophy, and pure, Mahayana 
Buddhism. 

In your view of "relative only," apparently everything is dual -- since there 
is nothing left but opposites that separate from each other as your viewpoint 
changes. By the way, that's what Einstein meant by relative in the first 
place. It's a subjective quality of space, not objective. It's what trapped 
him from finding a unified field theory that could put all the relative 
phenomena together with their absolute origin in a "singularity" -- which his 
equations proved existed -- but which he couldn't bridge beyond its "event 
barrier." (That is simply the point on the circumference of the black hole 
where sidereal light becomes astral light) It's a fact, known to the Adepts, 
that Astral light moves at a velocity higher than C^2 -- a speed over ten 
times that of visible light. But visible or experienceable or not, that 
space between the zero-point singularity and the event barrier, or the Planck 
space between the quantum particles, still exists, and is full of energetic 
motion (of strings or rays of primal force) -- as "proven" in ten dimensional 
Superstring/M-brane TOE ("theory of everything") that completely solves 
Einstein's final problem. 

<<<[Leon] That, too. The Spirit is the zero-point with its unconditioned 
spinning "Life Force" (containing ALL the Cosmos' experiential memories) -- 
while the Matter or substance is the conditioned multidimensional fields of 
consciousness that have emanated (involved) out of it.>>>

[Jerry] OK, and those "experiential memories" are called shistas.

[Leon] I take it, then, that you now agree that the zero-point must exist as 
the absolute unlimited source of all the spinergy's or life forces (Krishna) 
-- that could have no reason not to contain, all together, the "shistas" of 
countless universes filled with countless beings or potential beings -- all, 
without separating from or diminishing that infinite source? Do you then, 
not agree that that non diminishable zero-point with it s infinite life force 
spinergy, as both beness and potential being, the source of all consciousness 
and matter, is both eternal and non dual, and also the "absolute reality" of 
all that is, was, or ever will be? 

<<< Their triadic connection to the Absolute reality is what constitutes the 
first trinity or monadic existence at any subsequent level. (Mulaprakriti, 
Prakriti, Perusha; Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva; Kether, Binah, Chochma; Atma, 
Buddhi, Manas; etc.) >>>

[Jerry] I find the above to be very confusing and not technically correct. To 
claim a "connection" between duality and nonduality is problematic (ie., it 
cannot be a causal connection). Again, your phrase "Absolute reality" has no 
meaning for me. Also, the word "monadic" is misleading as trinities are 
composed of three, not one.

[Leon] If you followed the track of the emanation of a single ray from a 
zero-point to form a spherical form that is continuously self generated -- 
you will see that it is impossible for such a spherical field to exist 
without two inner spheres connected to it -- like bubbles within a bubble, 
or, in cross section, a figure eight inscribed within a circle. That's as 
technically correct as one can get. Since, those three fields are one unity, 
they are both a trinity and a monad. Thus, there is a definite connection, 
when it comes down to a free standing field in its first differentiation, 
"between duality and non duality." Therefore, the Monad is always a trinity, 
as well as a unity and a duality. Atma, Buddhi and Manas cannot, then, exist 
separately, and they are intimately connected, coenergetically, 
topologically, and consciously through their zero-points of tangency, both 
inside and outside being a continuity -- much like a Klien Bottle or a Mobius 
Strip. See the 3-cycle field generation diagram at:
http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/
chakrafield.html#anchor1341429

<<< Thus, accounting for a potential infinitude of finite beings within our 
conditioned reality -- each with infinite potentials of progress along the 
path, to ultimately become a God.>>>

[Jerry] To what purpose? Why should I want to "become a God?" It sounds like 
some kind of self-gratification or self-aggrandizment. And my spiritual 
nature is already god-like right now.

[Leon] Well, I guess there's no point in talking to you further since your're 
already there. :-) But, why take what I said personally? I was only 
interpreting the Kabbalistic statement, "First a light, then a stone, then a 
plant, then an animal, then a man, then an angel, and then a god." It's not 
a question of what anyone wants... But if you stay on the track of evolution, 
having come up through all the kingdoms, when you get to the top of the human 
kingdom, and all your seven principles are in their seventh round and seventh 
race, then what's the next step after you're dumped into pralaya with all the 
rest of the remaining godlike souls?

Anyway, it isn't such a bad goal for a Bodhisattva to look forward to, since 
its a theosophical given that "the last one in will be the first one out." 
And, in the next stage of higher evolution, that means being one of the Seven 
Dhyan Chohans or "Builders." Don't know about you, or any other reader of 
this dialogue -- but for an old Cosmic Engineer like me, that would be a 
super interesting job. So, I'm working on it. :-)

Best wishes,

LHM