Theos-Talk Archives (March 2003 Message tt00024)

Someone might find the appended story interesting. It comes from 
Benhamin Jowett's public domain translation of Plato's REPUBLIC (book 
10) and is the story of an ancient man who allegedly had a Near Death 
Experience after being mortally wounded on the battlefield. The 
ancients collected and studied stories like this, as the only 
rational way to determine if there is any consciousness after death, 
and, if so, what is its nature. Plutarch recorded two lengthy 
stories of this type as did others.

To what extent Plato repeats the story accurately and to what extent 
he uses it as a vehicle for his own ideas is impossible to say. Some 
of the elements of this story have been reported by modern 
commentators who claim also to have had Near Death Experiences and 
who were almost certainly not well read enough to be familiar with 
Plato. He agrees with netemara that souls about to be born "choose" 
their fate, but with some interesting twists. Once a fate is chosen, 
he says, the soul cannot escape it. He also seems to doubt that 
tyrants like Hitler escape the consequences of their deeds. Anyway, 
read and decide for yourself if there is anything to it.

"Well, I said, I will tell you a tale; not one of the tales which 
Odysseus tells to the hero Alcinous, yet this too is a tale of a 
hero, Er the son of Armenius, a Pamphylian by birth. He was slain in 
battle, and ten days afterwards, when the bodies of the dead were 
taken up already in a state of corruption, his body was found 
unaffected by decay, and carried away home to be buried. And on the 
twelfth day, as he was lying on the funeral pile, he returned to life 
and told them what he had seen in the other world. He said that when 
his soul left the body he went on a journey with a great company, and 
that they came to a mysterious place at which there were two openings 
in the earth; they were near together, and over against them were two 
other openings in the heaven above. In the intermediate space there 
were judges seated, who commanded the just, after they had given 
judgment on them and had bound their sentences in front of them, to 
ascend by the heavenly way on the right hand; and in like manner the 
unjust were bidden by them to descend by the lower way on the left 
hand; these also bore the symbols of their deeds, but fastened on 
their backs. He drew near, and they told him that he was to be the 
messenger who would carry the report of the other world to men, and 
they bade him hear and see all that was to be heard and seen in that 
place. Then he beheld and saw on one side the souls departing at 
either opening of heaven and earth when sentence had been given on 
them; and at the two other openings other souls, some ascending out 
of the earth dusty and worn with travel, some descending out of 
heaven clean and bright. And arriving ever and anon they seemed to 
have come from a long journey, and they went forth with gladness into 
the meadow, where they encamped as at a festival; and those who knew 
one another embraced and conversed, the souls which came from earth 
curiously enquiring about the things above, and the souls which came 
from heaven about the things beneath. And they told one another of 
what had happened by the way, those from below weeping and sorrowing 
at the remembrance of the things which they had endured and seen in 
their journey beneath the earth (now the journey lasted a thousand 
years), while those from above were describing heavenly delights and 
visions of inconceivable beauty. The Story, Glaucon, would take too 
long to tell; but the sum was this: ??He said that for every wrong 
which they had done to any one they suffered tenfold; or once in a 
hundred years ??such being reckoned to be the length of man's life, 
and the penalty being thus paid ten times in a thousand years. If, 
for example, there were any who had been the cause of many deaths, or 
had betrayed or enslaved cities or armies, or been guilty of any 
other evil behaviour, for each and all of their offences they 
received punishment ten times over, and the rewards of beneficence 
and justice and holiness were in the same proportion. I need hardly 
repeat what he said concerning young children dying almost as soon as 
they were born. Of piety and impiety to gods and parents, and of 
murderers, there were retributions other and greater far which he 
described. He mentioned that he was present when one of the spirits 
asked another, 'Where is Ardiaeus the Great?' (Now this Ardiaeus 
lived a thousand years before the time of Er: he had been the tyrant 
of some city of Pamphylia, and had murdered his aged father and his 
elder brother, and was said to have committed many other abominable 
crimes.) The answer of the other spirit was: 'He comes not hither and 
will never come. And this,' said he, 'was one of the dreadful sights 
which we ourselves witnessed. We were at the mouth of the cavern, 
and, having completed all our experiences, were about to reascend, 
when of a sudden Ardiaeus appeared and several others, most of whom 
were tyrants; and there were also besides the tyrants private 
individuals who had been great criminals: they were just, as they 
fancied, about to return into the upper world, but the mouth, instead 
of admitting them, gave a roar, whenever any of these incurable 
sinners or some one who had not been sufficiently punished tried to 
ascend; and then wild men of fiery aspect, who were standing by and 
heard the sound, seized and carried them off; and Ardiaeus and others 
they bound head and foot and hand, and threw them down and flayed 
them with scourges, and dragged them along the road at the side, 
carding them on thorns like wool, and declaring to the passers?by 
what were their crimes, and that they were being taken away to be 
cast into hell.' And of all the many terrors which they had endured, 
he said that there was none like the terror which each of them felt 
at that moment, lest they should hear the voice; and when there was 
silence, one by one they ascended with exceeding joy. These, said Er, 
were the penalties and retributions, and there were blessings as 
great. 

"Now when the spirits which were in the meadow had tarried seven 
days, on the eighth they were obliged to proceed on their journey, 
and, on the fourth day after, he said that they came to a place where 
they could see from above a line of light, straight as a column, 
extending right through the whole heaven and through the earth, in 
colour resembling the rainbow, only brighter and purer; another day's 
journey brought them to the place, and there, in the midst of the 
light, they saw the ends of the chains of heaven let down from above: 
for this light is the belt of heaven, and holds together the circle 
of the universe, like the under?girders of a trireme. From these ends 
is extended the spindle of Necessity, on which all the revolutions 
turn. The shaft and hook of this spindle are made of steel, and the 
whorl is made partly of steel and also partly of other materials. Now 
the whorl is in form like the whorl used on earth; and the 
description of it implied that there is one large hollow whorl which 
is quite scooped out, and into this is fitted another lesser one, and 
another, and another, and four others, making eight in all, like 
vessels which fit into one another; the whorls show their edges on 
the upper side, and on their lower side all together form one 
continuous whorl. This is pierced by the spindle, which is driven 
home through the centre of the eighth. The first and outermost whorl 
has the rim broadest, and the seven inner whorls are narrower, in the 
following proportions ??the sixth is next to the first in size, the 
fourth next to the sixth; then comes the eighth; the seventh is 
fifth, the fifth is sixth, the third is seventh, last and eighth 
comes the second. The largest (of fixed stars) is spangled, and the 
seventh (or sun) is brightest; the eighth (or moon) coloured by the 
reflected light of the seventh; the second and fifth (Saturn and 
Mercury) are in colour like one another, and yellower than the 
preceding; the third (Venus) has the whitest light; the fourth (Mars) 
is reddish; the sixth (Jupiter) is in whiteness second. Now the whole 
spindle has the same motion; but, as the whole revolves in one 
direction, the seven inner circles move slowly in the other, and of 
these the swiftest is the eighth; next in swiftness are the seventh, 
sixth, and fifth, which move together; third in swiftness appeared to 
move according to the law of this reversed motion the fourth; the 
third appeared fourth and the second fifth. The spindle turns on the 
knees of Necessity; and on the upper surface of each circle is a 
siren, who goes round with them, hymning a single tone or note. The 
eight together form one harmony; and round about, at equal intervals, 
there is another band, three in number, each sitting upon her throne: 
these are the Fates, daughters of Necessity, who are clothed in white 
robes and have chaplets upon their heads, Lachesis and Clotho and 
Atropos, who accompany with their voices the harmony of the sirens ??
Lachesis singing of the past, Clotho of the present, Atropos of the 
future; Clotho from time to time assisting with a touch of her right 
hand the revolution of the outer circle of the whorl or spindle, and 
Atropos with her left hand touching and guiding the inner ones, and 
Lachesis laying hold of either in turn, first with one hand and then 
with the other. 

"When Er and the spirits arrived, their duty was to go at once to 
Lachesis; but first of all there came a prophet who arranged them in 
order; then he took from the knees of Lachesis lots and samples of 
lives, and having mounted a high pulpit, spoke as follows: 'Hear the 
word of Lachesis, the daughter of Necessity. Mortal souls, behold a 
new cycle of life and mortality. Your genius will not be allotted to 
you, but you choose your genius; and let him who draws the first lot 
have the first choice, and the life which he chooses shall be his 
destiny. Virtue is free, and as a man honours or dishonours her he 
will have more or less of her; the responsibility is with the 
chooser ??God is justified.' When the Interpreter had thus spoken he 
scattered lots indifferently among them all, and each of them took up 
the lot which fell near him, all but Er himself (he was not allowed), 
and each as he took his lot perceived the number which he had 
obtained. Then the Interpreter placed on the ground before them the 
samples of lives; and there were many more lives than the souls 
present, and they were of all sorts. There were lives of every animal 
and of man in every condition. And there were tyrannies among them, 
some lasting out the tyrant's life, others which broke off in the 
middle and came to an end in poverty and exile and beggary; and there 
were lives of famous men, some who were famous for their form and 
beauty as well as for their strength and success in games, or, again, 
for their birth and the qualities of their ancestors; and some who 
were the reverse of famous for the opposite qualities. And of women 
likewise; there was not, however, any definite character them, 
because the soul, when choosing a new life, must of necessity become 
different. But there was every other quality, and the all mingled 
with one another, and also with elements of wealth and poverty, and 
disease and health; and there were mean states also. And here, my 
dear Glaucon, is the supreme peril of our human state; and therefore 
the utmost care should be taken. Let each one of us leave every other 
kind of knowledge and seek and follow one thing only, if peradventure 
he may be able to learn and may find some one who will make him able 
to learn and discern between good and evil, and so to choose always 
and everywhere the better life as he has opportunity. He should 
consider the bearing of all these things which have been mentioned 
severally and collectively upon virtue; he should know what the 
effect of beauty is when combined with poverty or wealth in a 
particular soul, and what are the good and evil consequences of noble 
and humble birth, of private and public station, of strength and 
weakness, of cleverness and dullness, and of all the soul, and the 
operation of them when conjoined; he will then look at the nature of 
the soul, and from the consideration of all these qualities he will 
be able to determine which is the better and which is the worse; and 
so he will choose, giving the name of evil to the life which will 
make his soul more unjust, and good to the life which will make his 
soul more just; all else he will disregard. For we have seen and know 
that this is the best choice both in life and after death. A man must 
take with him into the world below an adamantine faith in truth and 
right, that there too he may be undazzled by the desire of wealth or 
the other allurements of evil, lest, coming upon tyrannies and 
similar villainies, he do irremediable wrongs to others and suffer 
yet worse himself; but let him know how to choose the mean and avoid 
the extremes on either side, as far as possible, not only in this 
life but in all that which is to come. For this is the way of 
happiness. 

"And according to the report of the messenger from the other world 
this was what the prophet said at the time: 'Even for the last comer, 
if he chooses wisely and will live diligently, there is appointed a 
happy and not undesirable existence. Let not him who chooses first be 
careless, and let not the last despair.' And when he had spoken, he 
who had the first choice came forward and in a moment chose the 
greatest tyranny; his mind having been darkened by folly and 
sensuality, he had not thought out the whole matter before he chose, 
and did not at first sight perceive that he was fated, among other 
evils, to devour his own children. But when he had time to reflect, 
and saw what was in the lot, he began to beat his breast and lament 
over his choice, forgetting the proclamation of the prophet; for, 
instead of throwing the blame of his misfortune on himself, he 
accused chance and the gods, and everything rather than himself. Now 
he was one of those who came from heaven, and in a former life had 
dwelt in a well?ordered State, but his virtue was a matter of habit 
only, and he had no philosophy. And it was true of others who were 
similarly overtaken, that the greater number of them came from heaven 
and therefore they had never been schooled by trial, whereas the 
pilgrims who came from earth, having themselves suffered and seen 
others suffer, were not in a hurry to choose. And owing to this 
inexperience of theirs, and also because the lot was a chance, many 
of the souls exchanged a good destiny for an evil or an evil for a 
good. For if a man had always on his arrival in this world dedicated 
himself from the first to sound philosophy, and had been moderately 
fortunate in the number of the lot, he might, as the messenger 
reported, be happy here, and also his journey to another life and 
return to this, instead of being rough and underground, would be 
smooth and heavenly. Most curious, he said, was the spectacle ??sad 
and laughable and strange; for the choice of the souls was in most 
cases based on their experience of a previous life. There he saw the 
soul which had once been Orpheus choosing the life of a swan out of 
enmity to the race of women, hating to be born of a woman because 
they had been his murderers; he beheld also the soul of Thamyras 
choosing the life of a nightingale; birds, on the other hand, like 
the swan and other musicians, wanting to be men. The soul which 
obtained the twentieth lot chose the life of a lion, and this was the 
soul of Ajax the son of Telamon, who would not be a man, remembering 
the injustice which was done him the judgment about the arms. The 
next was Agamemnon, who took the life of an eagle, because, like 
Ajax, he hated human nature by reason of his sufferings. About the 
middle came the lot of Atalanta; she, seeing the great fame of an 
athlete, was unable to resist the temptation: and after her there 
followed the soul of Epeus the son of Panopeus passing into the 
nature of a woman cunning in the arts; and far away among the last 
who chose, the soul of the jester Thersites was putting on the form 
of a monkey. There came also the soul of Odysseus having yet to make 
a choice, and his lot happened to be the last of them all. Now the 
recollection of former tolls had disenchanted him of ambition, and he 
went about for a considerable time in search of the life of a private 
man who had no cares; he had some difficulty in finding this, which 
was lying about and had been neglected by everybody else; and when he 
saw it, he said that he would have done the had his lot been first 
instead of last, and that he was delighted to have it. And not only 
did men pass into animals, but I must also mention that there were 
animals tame and wild who changed into one another and into 
corresponding human natures ??the good into the gentle and the evil 
into the savage, in all sorts of combinations. 

"All the souls had now chosen their lives, and they went in the order 
of their choice to Lachesis, who sent with them the genius whom they 
had severally chosen, to be the guardian of their lives and the 
fulfiller of the choice: this genius led the souls first to Clotho, 
and drew them within the revolution of the spindle impelled by her 
hand, thus ratifying the destiny of each; and then, when they were 
fastened to this, carried them to Atropos, who spun the threads and 
made them irreversible, whence without turning round they passed 
beneath the throne of Necessity; and when they had all passed, they 
marched on in a scorching heat to the plain of Forgetfulness, which 
was a barren waste destitute of trees and verdure; and then towards 
evening they encamped by the river of Unmindfulness, whose water no 
vessel can hold; of this they were all obliged to drink a certain 
quantity, and those who were not saved by wisdom drank more than was 
necessary; and each one as he drank forgot all things. Now after they 
had gone to rest, about the middle of the night there was a 
thunderstorm and earthquake, and then in an instant they were driven 
upwards in all manner of ways to their birth, like stars shooting. He 
himself was hindered from drinking the water. But in what manner or 
by what means he returned to the body he could not say; only, in the 
morning, awaking suddenly, he found himself lying on the pyre. 

"And thus, Glaucon, the tale has been saved and has not perished, and 
will save us if we are obedient to the word spoken; and we shall pass 
safely over the river of Forgetfulness and our soul will not be 
defiled. Wherefore my counsel is that we hold fast ever to the 
heavenly way and follow after justice and virtue always, considering 
that the soul is immortal and able to endure every sort of good and 
every sort of evil. Thus shall we live dear to one another and to the 
gods, both while remaining here and when, like conquerors in the 
games who go round to gather gifts, we receive our reward. And it 
shall be well with us both in this life and in the pilgrimage of a 
thousand years which we have been describing.