[Date Prev] [Date Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next]

RE: Re: on "Bhakti Yoga" and Gurus

Feb 10, 2003 03:34 AM
by dalval14

Feb 10 2003

Re: Bhakti Yoga -- devotion and "gurus"

Dear Friends and Katinka and Leon:

I read both your responses. Many thanks.

My view is simply this: We are all immortals (as EGOS --
ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS = Monads ) we have been going a long together
studying the same great truths, although in this life apart
geographically. Some grasp this important idea, and others may doubt
or deny it. It is so vastly important that it marks the dividing point
between self-progress and the failure to advance for this incarnation.

With Judge, H P B, the Masters of Wisdom, etc, we are several, or
many, generations apart in earth life, though if those are ADEPTS, the
death of the body is not significant. They are with us now either
reincarnated, or as Nirmanakayas.

Actually it is not even significant to us, as it is a tool (this
body), and when unable to continue, we get a new one under Karma -- I
am satisfied with that, and realise that may sound like "blind belief"
but to me it is a well reasoned proposition and therefore one that I
can adopt comfortably. Other may have reservations or other views

>From my point of view, therefore. I find these "Teachers" all saying
virtually the same thing. Why is there this unanimity of view? I
find it also in the ancient creeds and so called "esoteric" writings
as hints.

Let me offer this: We, as divine Intelligent and Thinking Monads, are
we not engaged in a continued (life by life) search of something that
will help to organize the many thousands of ideas and observations
concerning life and its purpose, concerning the universe, our earth
and what our relations with those are? Are we not right now the
intelligent links to other Monads as well as to the SOURCE ? How long
have we been in "school" and how long will we continue in it ? what is
to be learned? In a word : tolerance. Brotherhood.

Is it not a fact that the earth and Universe around us is so complex,
it has to be run by a corps of impartial and impersonal volunteers --
the great "servants' of nature (see S D I 207 -210) that honestly
and diligently reflect and apply its laws and processes?

Actually the ramifications of its merely mechanical responses are
enormously complex -- as (for instance) our own physical bodies reveal
this -- and we only contact them very superficially. The whole earth
is almost impossible for us to consider with our mind extended -- and
yet the patterns of life seem to be well organized. So what does that
tell us ?

I consider that any one who gives me a valid and useful idea is both
my friend and co-student. If advanced, I try to see how coherent and
reasonable their presentations are. When I am sure that the
presentation is HONEST and SPIRITUAL ( Ideal) then I trust what is
offered and use it to test the base I am building myself -- and over
which I maintain continued vigilant and always attentive control.

Theosophy is not presented as a "belief" or something to be swallowed
incautiously. Of all the proposals made to mankind it demands and
insists on being tested and verified before it is adopted. No one is
encouraged to jump and use it blindly or ignorantly. This is very

Wisdom and true knowledge is everyone's property. It cannot be bought
and sold as a commodity. Hence the various commercial enterprises
that offer classes in "Occultism," "Yoga," "Spiritual advancement,"
etc.. are virtually shams. The take money and give nothing of value.
In fact they may infect the learned.

The theosophical view is relatively simple: but it is intellectual
and metaphysical -- and as in the case of all true sciences, it
declares them in advance:

1 UNITY in complexity SPIRIT enveloping every aspect of separative
matter. Providing the IDEALS as eternal models. It does not vary.

2.	LAWS and PATTERNS forming the base of all material existence. But
any "form" is under constant change, so underlying it are the real
patterns on which physical matter comes and goes. Continual regular
and harmonic motion. This is the great ability to harmonize

3.	Creative THOUGHT and the WILL -- that drive all aspects of progress
and serve as the necessary link between IDEAL and FORMS -- as the
tools of experience.

A function of recoding everything is innate to this process, ever
since the prime "beginning" . Therefore you will find in the SD I
267 : (top of page) "... The SECRET DOCTRINE teaches history ..."
And unbiased record of facts open to all. This is a most powerful
tool and claim.

The Individuality of Mind demands a pattern of morality that has to be
brotherly to mean anything over the immense periods of time and
experiences involved.

Lets admit they (H P B and Judge, and others) were responsible for
bringing to our attention the philosophy of Theosophy. We need not
have accepted it. But seeing we were interested we have separately
devoted time to examining it and also to checking the presentations
made by those great Earlier Students. Any one who has been to school
will recognize that they first adopt information given as true, later
they seek to develop independently the tools to ascertain exactitude,
universality, impartiality, etc.. in the memories they first accepted.
They reexamine them -- and in fact continually do this -- for
impartial accuracy and discard anything that is not of that standard.
To do otherwise is to accept partial truths and to magnify any
inherent errors in them that we may have thoughtlessly accepted.

The choosing of a "guru" is apparently a very serious and important a
matter in the inner life of a student. If we read what is in The
SECRET DOCTRINE Vol 1. pp 570-575 we find it said that there are 7
great streams to monads each stream differing slightly in it emphasis
and yet they are all united in the highest, the FIRST, the SUPREME --
and all are a part of the ABSOLUTENESS -- which is all. In this we
are brothers all. Since this is not apparent to us, we try to
understand matters relating to planes of cause that tenderly our
superficial, material and mechanical field of present waking

This is where the "Guru" business starts. Perhaps as Leon suggests,
we could take Krishna in the BHAGAVAD GITA as a model, study what he
emphasizes to Arjuna. Place ourselves in the "Arjuna mode" and look
within for the Divine Presence our HIGHER SELF already in place and
waiting for us to notice it. Does Krishna in any place ask Arjuna to
do anything else than what he freely decides to do. The last words of
the book repeat this:


"But further listen to my supreme and most mysterious words which I
will now for thy good reveal unto thee because thou art dearly beloved
of me. Place thy heart upon me as I have declared myself to be, serve
me, offer unto me alone, and bow down before me alone, and thou shalt
come to me; I swear it, for thou art dear to me. Forsake every other
religion and take refuge alone with me; grieve not, for I shall
deliver thee from all transgressions. Thou must never reveal this to
one who doth not practice mortification, who is without devotion, who
careth not to hear it, nor unto him who despiseth me. He who
expoundeth this supreme mystery to my worshippers shall come to me if
he performs the highest worship of me; and there shall not be among
men anyone who will better serve me than he, and he shall be dearest
unto me of all on earth. If anyone shall study these sacred dialogues
held between us two, I shall consider that I am worshipped by him with
the sacrifice of knowledge; this is my resolve. And even the man who
shall listen to it with faith and not reviling shall, being freed from
evil, attain to the regions of happiness provided for those whose
deeds are righteous.

Hast thou heard all this, O son of Pritha, with mind one-pointed? Has
the delusion of thought which arose from ignorance been removed, O


"By thy divine power, O thou who fallest not,* my delusion is
destroyed, I am collected once more; I am free from doubt, firm, and
will act according to thy bidding."


Thus have I been an ear-witness of the miraculous astonishing
dialogue, never heard before, between Vasudeva and the magnanimous son
of Pritha. By the favor of Vyasa I heard this supreme mystery of
Yoga - devotion - even as revealed from the mouth of

* The word is "Achyuta.

Krishna himself who is the supreme Master of devotion. And as I again
and again remember, O mighty king, this wonderful sacred dialogue
between Krishna and Arjuna, I am delighted again and again. Also, as I
recall to my memory the wonderful form of Hari, * the Lord, my
astonishment is great, O king, and I rejoice again and again.
Where-ever Krishna, the supreme Master of devotion, and wherever the
son of Pritha, the mighty archer, may be, there with certainty are
fortune, victory, wealth, and wise action; this is my belief.


So placing personages or other students in grades and places is always

We have to remember that KRISHNA is the HIGHER SELF -- the "spark" or
"ray" of the ONE UNIVERSAL SPIRIT -- presenting Arjuna as well as in
every creature. Hence he does not coerce Arjuna, but leaves his with
a recommendation and FREE TO CHOOSE.

I feel comfortable with this for the INNER ME is still the RULER	.H P
B writes that each life time any incarnated being (even a BUDDHA or an
AVATAR) goes through some processes of initiation into higher and
deeper knowledge -- if they want to and desire to. We have the same
opportunity, but not having followed a rigorous course of
self-purification in the past we may take much more time to succeed.
Some may not see the opportunity at all, some have doubts that deter
and delay them, and so on. It is our personality that serves to veil
the light and actions of our HIGHER SELF within.

I freely admit that I have so far had no fault to find of any serous
nature in coherency and logic with the Theosophical presentations and
principles. They make sense of themselves-- to me. I
feel after such a long time that I can trust them.

And that is the situation as far as I go.

Best wishes,



-----Original Message-----
From: Katinka Hesselink
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 12:15 AM
Subject: Re: on "Bhakti Yoga"

Hi Leon,

Dallas privately mailed me about this, so I reread Judge and I have
to agree with you both: I was a bit harsh on Judge.
The problem with having a teacher is that you come to see things
almost through their eyes. This is a natural result of the communion
that comes into being. When it comes naturally, I am enthousiastic
about that. Also, I wish my students were a bit more like that.
Respect for teachers isn't something taught to children by their
parents as much anymore. Independence is the thing. The problem with
too much independence is an inability to listen to what somebody has
to say, and hear it from their point of view.

But, all this has to come naturally. What I was trying to say, but
obviously not effectively, was that a real guru-chela relationship
emerges, more than it is cultivated. It was said somewhere that
chelaship will come upon the person. Everything else we know about
the relationship between mahatma and chela should, IMO be seen from
that perspective: there being a natural communion between the two,
and mutual devotion etc. Orders are in this, as I think it has also
been said in the Mahatma Letters, rare. Blavatsky and Olcott were in
the very strange position to do a lot of wordly work in the name of
the Mahatmas. That is not the usual order of business, obviously, or
we would be seeing inspiring examples of wordly work all over the
place (then again, maybe we aren't looking well enough). Seriously:
mostly the white brotherhood work is done in secrecy, in the
background, far from sight. Details of people-managment, publicity,
books that have to get somewhere - are simply a result of the public
nature of their work. And the mahatmas were simply gracious enough to
lend some of their inner knowledge to help keep things afloat.

That was what I was trying to say. But such a sacred relationship
should not be forced, and what you write below is a wise state of
affairs: learn from everything and everybody, if you can.

And yes, Blavatsky is in some ways my guru. I very much hesitate to
disagree with her, always thinking I must be misunderstanding her.
But other "guru's" include: Krishnamurti, Buddhism as a whole, Mother
Teresa, and at the moment - this list.


[Back to Top]

Theosophy World: Dedicated to the Theosophical Philosophy and its Practical Application