[Date Prev] [Date Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next]

RE: Re to Dallas - Guru-Chela

Jan 09, 2003 04:52 PM
by dalval14

Jan 9th 2003

Dear G:

Here are a few comments below



-----Original Message-----
From: gschueler
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 8:36 PM
Subject: Re - Guru-Chela

<<<May I but in with a few more observations ?>>>

Any time, Dallas.

<<<Regarding the relations between Guru and Chela one ought to observe
the traditions of the ancient Lodge of the WHITE ADEPTS never demands
of any
"chela" complete subservience, belief or acceptance.>>>

Quite right. I agree completely, nor would any of the White Adepts
subservience. No indeed, such subservience must be given freely by the
of their own accord.

<<<The right to think for ones' self and to make ones' own decisions
is never
curtailed. How could that be done for an immortal ? >>>

First, no one is denying anyone the right to think for themselves.
Second, the
chela is not an immortal, he is a human being. The atma-buddhi of the
chela is
relatively immortal, but the chela has yet to communicate and identify
this. It is the task of the guru to do this providing the chela is


DTB	The aggregation of skandhas that provide the "Chela" personality
with a basis for its consciousness and current living is I think
logically to be traced to the central attractive point namely the
immortal spiritual SELF ( ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS ). while the aggregation
may be temporary and always changing ( Nitya pralaya ) the central and
pivotal Consciousness is forever the same or else there could be
nothing that could progress or improve.

If we look on the universe as the area in which spirit and matter
interact, and both of them are immortal, and eternal forces, their
distributive centers ( Monads, or any other designation) are equally
under the same LAW that causes the whole and permits their individual

Am I wrong in this, or do I not say it right ?


<<<The Guru helps and serves the chela, he does not dominate nor does
demand impossible submission.>>>

Such a submission is not impossible, and it is traditionally exactly
what is
done. Only by such a submission is the relationship workable. If you
think a
guru does not dominate the chela, then please read the lives of
Naropa, and Milarepa, three guru-saints of the Kagyu Order of Tibetan
who would tell you otherwise.

<<< That, in any case, is unreasonable, and also unenforceable.>>>

Unreasonable, no, it is indeed psychologically reasonable. I agree
that it is
unenforceable, and no real guru would ever try to "enforce" such a

<<<Neither the Guru nor the chela can ever be unconscious of their
immortality, or of the Karma which unites them for life, and for lives
come. The Chela might make this mistake, but not the Guru.>>>

Dallas, my friend, there is no such thing as "individual immortality"
perhaps as a dream/hope in your own mind. According to the occult
it is the Black Magicians who try to obtain individual immortality,
and even
Blavatsky says that this is black magic and wrong. Anton Levay
for example, taught magical techniques that he claimed lead to
immortality, and he was a very black magician indeed.


DTB	I think the confusion may be over the meaning I attribute to
"individuality" (as the spiritual aspect of Man), and, "personality"
( to which I ascribe the assembly of the skandhas that form the 4
lower upadhis or vehicles).

INDIVIDUALITY is immortal and eternal. Personality comes and goes and
yet has a consciousness of its own which at the highest is aware of
the Spiritual INDIVIDUALITY.

If this were not so we could not understand Buddhaship or the
possibility of a "Higher Manas."


<<<The reason for this is that each individual, be they Guru or Chela,
is in
essence an immortal Soul Ego. (ATMA-BUDDHI) --or HIGHER SELF.>>>

Each "individual" is a conditional reality that is temporary. Atma is
collective, not individual. Atma-Buddhi the so-called Higher Self, is
nirvanee and we will become a nirvanee if we identify with it. To
avoid this,
we Theosophists are supposed to include manas because
atma-buddhi-manas, when
functioning together, is the Adept, and can even be a bodhisattva.


DTB	In studying theosophy I became aware of a few places in which the
spiritual vestures of the Bodhisattvas And Buddhas were described: In
the THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY H P B discusses these on p. 338-9 under
TRIKAYA; p. 341- 344 under TRIRATNA and TRISHARNA; Voice,
p. 46, 77-78 fn


<<<The Guru enables the Lower Manas (of this incarnation) to see
itself more
clearly. The Lower Manas is that, which is at present the active
principle in
each one of us. >>>

No, that is the function of a psychiatrist or shrink. The guru enables
chela to raise consciousness to atma-buddhi-manas so that the chela
can become
a new guru. If the guru is capable and the chela ready, then the guru
can help
the chela raise consciousness all the way to the nonduality of Beness.


DTB	In my opinion without a knowledge of the Spiritual, immortal side
of man's nature and the ever renewable personality which envelops it,
no modern day psychiatrist or shrink can do much if anything except to
the personality. I would go further and say that without any true
basis for ethics as defined by universal Law, These two "authorities"
are completely at sea, and have no concept of the importance of the
self-controled moral reform (conducted by the Higher aspect of the
Personality on its lower self -- so essential for any spiritual

As far as I a aware there is a single simple rule that defines
ethics/morals: the voluntary observance of the laws of Nature -- a
harmonizing of ones' self with KARMA.


<<<...and in so doing, the Lower Manas is purified by the discipline
on it by its own inner HIGHER MANAS of all selfish tendencies -- as an
absolute prerequisite for Divine Wisdom to be able to shine through
it. >>>

To this I agree, and such purification is traditionally done by ritual
mantra repetition. Also by requesting the chela to do menial and
jobs and by observing the chela's egoistic responses.

<<<Every inch of progress is self-achieved by the aspirant. It is up
to the
chela to consider, and accept those conditions of self-imposed
which, in the case of the School of the White Brotherhood, have been
and proved essential by many millennia of experience.>>>

I agree with the first sentence, but the second sentence requires
faith that I
do not have. Two things are "essential:" (1) the guru must be
qualified, and
(2) the chela must accept every word from the guru as truth.

<<<Once accepted, the chela has to make it his business to provide
fidelity to the guru -- one, who for him is the embodiment
of TRUTH and therefore of the LAW OF KARMA in its entirety. It is for
reason that the relation is called dangerous to the guru, and
requires of the chela a careful and continuous observation of all


<<<It is difficult because the habits and ways of life and thinking
(as a
lower-manasic entity) of the chela have to be altered by his own
efforts. In effect it is like living in a house (the personality)
while it is
being remodeled by the indwelling architect and artisan. The human
will is
employed to do this. Altruism and impartiality are the tools and

Agreed although I would add compassion and selflessness to the


DTB	agreed


<<<This is what I learned from the reading of those articles and of
the KEY TO

I learned from reading the lives of many gurus, and by being a chela

Have a good day,

Jerry S.


Best wishes,


You are currently subscribed to theos-l as:
List URL -
To unsubscribe send a blank email to

[Back to Top]

Theosophy World: Dedicated to the Theosophical Philosophy and its Practical Application