Theos-Talk Archives (January 2003 Message tt00137)

Jan 9 2003

Dear Gerry:


I was afraid we would disagree on these points.


I see a correspondence ( analogy) between the higher principles in
man and those in the Universe.


The congeries of the lower principles ( or "matter" ) has an
intelligence which becomes self-conscious (as members of humanity,
you, me, etc... are now) and then, by self-effort it develops its
innate (but presently latent) faculty: universal self-consciousness.

In any case, the final Initiator is the HIGHER SELF. And that is as I
understand it is the ATMA.

The final initiation was the one in which the chela realizes that he
and the "Guru" are ONE. They are both universal Spiritual beings. And
yet they are also separate.

I think the Buddha said it succinctly: "Look inward. Thou art
BUDDHA." (Voice)

Best wishes,

Dallas

====================

-----Original Message-----
From: gschueler
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 5:02 PM
To:
Subject: Re to Dallas - Guru-Chela and Blinds

<<<This has for concomitant the fact that in each individual the 7th
and 6th
Principles (combined as the MONAD ) is the interior Guru of both
because at
that level both Atma and Buddh are universal. They are rays from the
ABSOLUTE
( Secret Doctrine II 167 ).>>>

Dallas, have you communicated with your "interior Guru?" If so, what
has it
taught you? If not, why not? I think you are talking theory here with
no
practical value for anyone. BTW, the "ABSOLUTE" as you use it here is
a blind.

<<<They mirror all the rest ( Secret Doctrine I 623, 632; II
186 ) The
"Three in one" is then seen to agree with all the rest.>>>

Again, this is theory with no practical value (if you think what you
are
saying here has practical value, then please expound). In my
discussion with
Mauri, I was talking about the traditional guru-chela relationship
where the
guru is an external person who has already reached enlightenment. The
task of
the external guru is to put the chela into direct communication with
his or
her "internal guru" which in Theosophical parlance is atma-buddhi
acting
together as if the combination were a monad even though they are not.
Theosophy theorizes the internal guru but leaves students with no
practical
means of communicating with it, let alone identifying with it. This is
the
task of the external guru.


<<<In fact the Higher Manas as MAHAT ("cosmic ideation " S D I 16)
is also
universal as Maha-Buddhi ( S D I 335, 572 ). Buddhi is the
characteristic
of Mahat ( Secret Doctrine I 256, 373 ). It is "manifested wisdom"
( S D
I 110 ).>>>

What does this have to do with the chela-guru relationship? What you
are
saying here is just more theory with no practical application. How
does MAHAT
help anyone to communicate with atma-buddhi? And in any case, "MAHAT"
is a
blind - it exists cosmically in the same way that manas exists
individually,
which is to say conditionally under both karma and maya.

<<<They are identified with the MANASAPUTRA (The Sons of Mind -- S D
II
167 ). >>>

The "MANASAPUTRA" is also a blind - it is not really a group of people
or
independent intelligent beings.


<<<As the Divine Rebels," they refused to "create will-less men"
(Secret
Doctrine II 245 ) .>>>

This is an allegory or myth-like story used to explain a very
complicated
creative process.

<<<With this as a preliminary it becomes clear that the "Guru" is an
advanced
student in occultism, and it becomes his duty to instruct the "pupil"
in the
facts that universal THEOSOPHY teaches -- the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB)
is a
beginning.>>>

OK, but only when the pupil is ready, and that will be when the pupil
accepts
the advanced student as a divine incarnation whose every word is
truth. This
is one of those "facts" that "universal THEOSOPHY," alias the esoteric
tradition, teaches.


<<<We have to select one who is able to explain,. and then conduct the
instruction with a series of logical and consecutive statements and
questions.
Best wishes,
Dallas>>>

Dallas, bless your heart, you hold onto manas and milk it for all its
worth.
Here is another "fact" from the esoteric tradition: THERE IS NO
LOGICAL WAY IN
WHICH THE ONE BECOMES THE MANY OR IN NONDUALITY BIFURCATING INTO
DUALITY - IT
IS NOT A LOGICAL PROCESS.

No, Dallas, the guru explains the initial assumptions of the esoteric
tradition to the chela, what Blavatsky calls "propositions," and then
uses
logic to develop the specifics from those unprovable assumptions. The
very
fact that the guru must tell something illogical or alogical to the
student is
WHY the student has to first agree to accept every word as truth, else
the
student will simply logically reject the unprovable propositions
outright and
get nowhere.

Jerry S.