re "faith," thematics ...
Jan 03, 2003 07:56 AM
On Theos-1, Gerald wrote: << >>
Not that I don't have
permission to quote, but ... This following was in response
to Gerald's "Re to Mauri - Gurus & Chelas" Jan 1 post on Theos-1.
Gerald, in this post I'm trying to offer some aspects of
how "faith" might be interpreted from various
perspectives, and how I tend to see "aspects of faith," so
before you jump to any conclusion about any particular
paragraph or about "what I think," maybe if you were to
read this entire spiel, first, not that ... whatever ...
Webster's: Faith: <<1. unquestioning belief. 4. anything
Webster's: Trust: <<1. firm belief or confidence in the
honesty, integrity, reliability, justice, etc. of another
person or thing; faith; reliance.>>
Gerald, we seem to be (are?) bringing up, continuing an
age old "faith" topic. While it would seem to me that my
approach to such as "spirituality," zen, mahayanics,
Theosophy, etc, has various facets to it, ("speculative,"
etc ...), as per it's "apparent" or "exoteric version," say,
and while I tend not to see myself particularly "unfairly
favoring" any particular, apparent bias within my "sense
of relevance," I seem to currently prefer a "basic
approach" that might be described as one by which I seem
to be assigning a basic relevance (or "faith," "trust," or
whatever) toward what would appear to me to be a kind
of intuitiveness about "h/Higher"... however that might be
seen to evolve in "exoteric terms."
So if you prefer to see "faith" (of whatever flavor)
somewhere along the line of such a process, Gerald, you
might have a point in as much as, as I tend to see it:
dualistic "reliance" is (isn't it,
theoretically/basically/exoterically in duality?) always
kind of relative, (if by whatever interpretive "faith
related" tendency?), so wouldn't there be somewhat "less
sense" in cultivating, say, "b/Basic faith relevance"
"intentionally" in mainstream terms, (ie, by purposely
trying to align one's thinking, "faith," etc, within what
would appear to be a generally accepted worldview),
since, (as we all know?), "faith" in the apparent products,
thought forms within such a relative, relational medium
"is" ("essentially"?) "mayavic," "in essence," so ...
("intentionally" in that, in some cases, "unintentional" in
the sense of "more intuitive cultivations" may be seen as
"more meaningful" or "more faith-based," to whatever
In other words, as I tend to see it, there would appear to
be no "faith" relevance in anything "much h/Higher"
within "duality itself," but then one might (justifiably?)
question (okay, "justifiably," in quotes, if you prefer ... ),
so one might question the the "relevance," or apparent
relevance, of such "relevance," out of one's sensed
interconnection (interpretiveness) with whatever
"h/Higher," thereby establishing one's
apparent/transcendent, "real" or "imagined," "faith
connection"...not that such connecting is not any less
"essentially mayavic," but/"but" ... After all, manas has to
(or does it?) hang on to "something," "basically" ... ?
Another perspective on "faith": In the early seventies, if I
remember correctly, there were controlled, scientific
studies on medical placebo's that convinced researchers
that there is a body-brain/mind connection in terms of
health, and that that connection could be beneficiently
activated with the use of placebos in a "medical setting."
Those quotes refer to a "familiar medical setting" setting
(compelete with ritualistic stethoscopes, white coats,
weigh scales, impressive certificates, impressive looking
instruments, etc, etc) that condition the patient to have
faith/trust in that kind of setting/doctor/s. The upshot of
the research was that, to all appearances, medical cures
were effected with the use of placebos. Of course if one
were to ask a representative of a pharmaceutical company
about that, one might receive a very different response,
these days, naturally, what with an apparent general
tendency for placing much faith in a certain kind of
socially counter-productive greed, instead?
So I think you have a point there, Gerald, about "faith."
Gerald, my interpretation of "working trust" takes in,
equates to, or translates toward "faith" in the sense that,
as I see it, "trust relevance" in duality has an essential
("essential enough"?) "faith" aspect, so that, if one can
accept/consider "trust" as a relevant enough
"faith"-derivative (has it come to that? :-), then "working
trust" means, (or "could mean"?), in that sense, as I see it,
a form of karmic variable that, in "manasic terms," (or
"mayavic terms," if you like, if you happen to be "more
esoterically" inclined ...:-), or is suggestive of a form of
working relationship in which "faith" or "trust" carries
enough of whatever it might be that one might, as a
student/chela, elicit, create, cultivate, come to realize, etc.
from a relationship or source that one has "elevated,"
cultivated, assigned relevance or significance in, by one's
For example, I feel that manas can, optionally, "elevate"
(or "relevatize," in basic terms, if by way of whichever
interpretive tendency?) even those who, outwardly, may
profess a total ignorance of "spiritual matters" or
"Theosophic topics." It's just a matter of perspective, isn't
it? For example, I've been "elevating"/relevatizing a
tennis friend for many years. But just a few days ago I
happened to "find out" that, "outwardly," he "is," or at
least "appears to be," kind of ignoratic about certain kinds
of "esoteric things" (ie, "in a sense").
Seems as if we're all relatively guru/chela's,
interchangeably, from moment to moment), but that,
(apparently/"apparently"?), some of us seem to have a
certain talent ("karmic propensity... ") to "elevate" or
relevatize our entire environment (not just people) to a
guruic relevance, sense, significance ... And if that kind
of "elevation" (or "relevance making," if you prefer, in
"exoteric terms" ...) is done with reference to one's
karmic/apparent limits or apparent guidelines, then (as I
see it) one ought to be able to "elevate" anybody,
anything, regardless, even the worst troublemakers in as
much as one's focus trascends appearances through to
what you, (Gerald, maybe?), might refer to as "a
connecting toward divinity," say (if "divinity" is seen as a
"Higher" that's "sensed as guiding," but "not heard," like
the "voice of the silence," or at least as some "extension
of such," maybe, in some cases ... Not that I've had any
particularly special experiences along those lines, (not
that I seem to prefer to think in terms of "special
experiences," if I can help it ...), except for maybe that
one time (when I slipped up? :-) when I seem to have
been transformed into a speculator, having had a
"profound enough realization," "apparently," (I seem to
think, thinking back on it ...), that I don't "basically know
anything," not that it seemed to be any kind of
"particularly spiritual or mystical" experience.
Defining a guru's "credentials" ought to involve, as a first
order of business, as I see it, "an assesment" of
"s/Self-r/Relevance," by whatever means that may be at
hand, at the time, with respect to whatever/whoever one
might experience. Which means that, in practice, in my
case, for example, on the average, those kinds of
"credentials" appear to be, at any given moment/scenario
of the day, all over the map, basically, though I seem to
think that I have cultivating a "higher" sense of reality, or
a "higher sense of reality making," lately, out of ...
While I tend to "agree with you, Gerald," (if you don't
mind getting "quoted"... :-) about "faith" having
relevance within a guru/chela inter something, at the same
time I tend to think that if a chela's "faith" is, in a sense,
"too exoteric" or naive (ie, not by way of a chela's "s/Self
relevance") then, well, good luck, I might say, because
such a chela might need it, in a sense ... Of course, in my
case, what with my speculative approach ... Hmm ... ^:-)
But I don't know if you see where I'm going with, in a
sense, by apparently reversing (?) the guru/chela picture
by placing a focus on "s/Self relevance," "instead,"
(apparently?), (ie, "s/Self relevance" in whatever
interpretive terms re "h/Higher," as per the quotes),
instead of getting worked up "faith"-wise by assigning
"credentialized faith" in a guru as though that could be
done "sensibly enough" without the "readiness" of "s/Self
relevance." But then (of course?) that's all so much
exoteric talk, so ...
So I agree with you 100%, Gerald, "in a sense," (as per
my preceding attempts to explain, hee hee); but/"but,"
seeing as such "agreements" are exoteric/mayavic, well ...
I don't see how that kind of "agreement making" means
much "in theory," aside from exoterics.
Maybe I'll consider this as a "part one" response to your
post, Gerald ...
PS Not that ...
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