Theos-Talk Archives (December 2002 Message tt00738)

DEAR STEVE STUBBS,

GENDER IDENTITY DISORDER (GID) is currently considered by the 
psychiatric profession to be a psychological condition that is ruled- 
out by a medical diagnosis of physically diagnosable INTERSEX 
or 'hermaphroditism'. If you read my Topical Index to my survey on 
the literature on INTERSEX, you will see that there is no longer any 
question about the influence of fetal hormones on the sex 
differentiation of the brain. So as far as the pure science of 
biology is concerned, the hormonal masculinization or feminization of 
the BRAIN IN ALL SPECIES IS AN INDISPUTABLE FACT. Sadly, this fact is 
not yet being admitted in the general clinical treatment of people 
with authentic GID. 

Never the less, my report is not about GID, but is about non-
controversial conditions of INTERSEX. Every animal and human intersex 
condition mentioned in my report is a form of real gross physical, 
scientifically or medically diagnosed HERMAPHRODITISM. So in regards 
to HPB, I was NOT refering to GID. Persons with GID have absolutely 
NORMAL detectable physiology and hormonal chemistry for their genetic 
and gonadal sex, but have an immutable sense of being the opposite 
sex. According to the overwhelming evidence from the pure science of 
biology, these persons are exhibiting the subjective results of fetal 
hormonal ABNORMALITIES during critical periods of neurological 
development in utero. However, this FACT is not being recognized due 
to resistance from religious, social, medical and legal opponents, 
who do not want to allow people to be defined by brain sex instead of 
genital, chromosomal or gonadal sex. 

In the case of medically recognised INTERSEXED PERSONS (please see my 
index) assigning them a legal sex at birth can be extremely difficult 
and often a complete disaster. Many intersex conditions are so 
internal or extreme (as in total sex reversal) that they are 
invisible. These conditions may never be diagnosed, or may manifest 
at puberty or later. 

Some conditions are so extreme that whole teams of experts cannot 
agree on what sex a child is. 

C-AIS sex reversed XY women are extremely feminine, even though they 
are genetic 'males'. Many XX and XY and genetic mosaic hermaphrodites 
are extremely feminine, identify as female and live their entire 
lives as such. What is not 'normal' is for a female to have a 
persistant sense of a masculine alter-ego or 'gender identity' as in 
HPB's case. In our time people are trying to express such 
deep 'dysphoric' senses of self, but in previous times in European 
culture (as opposed to other cultures that DID allow such variant 
gender expressions), such expressions were not approved. As a 
result, many such persons would seek socially acceptable out lets for 
their 'other selves', like writing, or theatrics. 

I do not assert that HPB was psychologically suffering from GID, or 
that she had some easily diagnosible form of intersex, but it is 
clear that she DID have a persistant life-long masculine alter-ego, 
and showed MANY personal and social / relational signs of being 
NEUROLOGICALLY HYPER ANDROGENIZED. In her time NO ONE WOULD HAVE 
CALLED A GID PERSON AN HERMAPHRODITE. GID was not recognised as 
existing then. The term HERMAPHRODITE would ONLY have been used for 
someone with an obvious INTERSEX CONDITION, as gonadal studies were 
only done on cadavers, and genetic studies were not yet possible. 

-BA G

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Stubbs <stevestubbs@y...>" 
<stevestubbs@y...> wrote:
> Dear BAG:
> 
> I read your post with interest but I am confused. Are you 
referring 
> to Gender Identity Disorder? I studied about that at the 
university 
> but never have met anyone who experienced it. GID is a 
psychological 
> condition which is different from hermaphroditism.
> 
> Early pictures of HPB look quite feminine to me, although in voice, 
> mannerisms, etc., she might have been more masculine than most 
women 
> of her era. There is no sign in anything she wrote that she dealt 
> with GID.
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Bhakti Ananda Goswami 
> <bhakti.eohn@v...>" <bhakti.eohn@v...> wrote:
> > TYPO CORRECTED AT >> <<
> > 
> > Now it is clear from photos of HPB that she did not experiance 
the 
> > kind of phyical masculinization that I did. Late virilizing forms 
> of 
> > either XX or XY intersex are extremely rare. In these conditions, 
> the 
> > child and adolesent may appear as a normal female. After a rather 
> > extreme >>(and possibly very late...in their 20s) 'puberty'<<, in 
> > which a 
> > phallus grows and secondary male sex characteristics develope, 
the 
> > person can no longer hide their transformation...or 'sex 
reversal' 
> > without great difficulty. This is obviously NOT what happened to 
> > HPB, but being feminine in her youth does not mean anything, as 
the 
> > late virilizing forms of intersex HOWEVER MILD OR EXTREME, do not 
> > NECESSARILY effect the person's pre- 'puberty' (pre-
masculinizing) 
> > femininity. 
> > 
> > GENDER IDENTITY IS DIFFERENT FROM THE ROLES THAT PEOPLE LEARN TO 
> PLAY 
> > FOR FAMILY AND SOCIAL APPROVAL. Even as a small child, I always 
> knew 
> > I was a boy, and had started secretly calling myself David by the 
> age 
> > of 9. At the age of 11 I introduced myself to my closest friend 
as 
> > David. At that time (and for years to come) I still showed no 
> > obvious external signs of being intersexed, that my family or 
> others 
> > could detect. Still I was extremely neurologically fetally 
> > androgenized, even to the extent of 'knowing' I was 'really a 
boy'. 
> > So it is entirely possible that HPB had some late-virilizing form 
> of 
> > intersex and a persistent sense of a masculine self, but 
developed 
> a 
> > feminine familial and public persona for survival reasons. 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Bhakti Ananda Goswami 
> > <bhakti.eohn@v...>" <bhakti.eohn@v...> wrote:
> > > Dear Paul,