Theos-Talk Archives (December 2002 Message tt00347)

Nevertheless, while this so called "closed case" stands as an opinionated and 
circumstantial indictment of some of the leaders of the Theosophical 
Societies who twisted and took over the "Theosophical Movement," and may have 
duped some of their followers during and after HPB's lifetime, it in no way 
refutes the validity of the teachings of theosophical metaphysics presented 
in the SD in outline, along with sufficient references to ancient scriptures 
and other "wisdom teachings" -- for open minded, discerning, and "intuitive 
students," using their own "self devised and self determined efforts" to 
decipher and determine their truth or validity for themselves. Accordingly, 
leaving all of HPB's personal opinions, misjudgments, and personal foibles 
aside, we still await logical and reasonable proof that the Cosmogenesis and 
Anthropogenesis as presented in the Book of Dzyan, and the understandings of 
compassion and "universal brotherhood" that stems therefrom, are false or 
flawed views of fundamental reality. For this writer, whose self proclaimed 
scholarship we can't deny, to blame HPB along with her benevolent and non 
discriminatory teachings of "theosophy" for the Third Reich, its racial 
theories, and Nazi Holocaust is pure hogwash, if not unconscionable. 

LHM 

In a message dated 12/10/02 1:38:55 PM, bhakti.eohn@verizon.net writes:

> 
>Message 9568 of 9571 
>
>From: <dalval14@e...> 
>Date: Mon Dec 9, 2002 4:21 pm
>Subject: Part MAHATMAS -- On H P B -- Her Position
>
>"This article is meant for members of the T.S...Those members who
>believe that such beings as the Masters may exist must come to one of
>two conclusions in regard to H.P.B.: either that she invented her
>Masters, who therefore have no real existence, or that she did not
>invent them but spoke in the names and by the orders of such beings."
> 
>>>>Here is a false dichotomy. By framing the issue in such simplistic 
>either-or categories, other real options are ruled-out for 
>consideration. This either-or framing ignores the possibility, or 
>likelihood, that she did 'invent' the Masters as a literary devise, 
>AND that the Masters were ALSO in fact based on very real (and 
>fallible) living, mortal humans. 
> 
>>>>Often in life the true and relational nature of things can be 
>realized only by understanding that things are seldom simply a matter 
>of THIS-OR-THAT, but are more often a complex interaction of THIS-AND-
>THAT. Instead of asserting that the Masters were completely 
>fictional, OR that they were the Beings HPB claimed, there is a third 
>probability, which is also compatible with all of the verifiable real-
>world facts that are known in the case. 
>
>"If we say she invented the Mahatmas, then, of course, as so often was
>said by her, all that she has taught and written is the product of her
>own brain, from which we would be bound to conclude that her position
>on the roll of great and powerful persons must be higher than people
>have been willing to place her."
>
>>>> From this we can see that the debate was framed in these either-
>or terms by HPB herself. 
> 
>
>"But I take it most of us believe in the truth of her statement that
>she had those teachers whom she called Masters and that they are more
>powerful beings than ordinary men."
> 
>>>>The Masters as extra-"ordinary" beings is asserted here. One 
>could reject the fictitious claims made for the Masters and still 
>accept that in mortal human terms, HPB's human prototypes for the 
>Masters WERE extra-ordinary people. They were uniquely privileged 
>and intelligent persons strategically located in time and place to 
>create a unique synthesis of some Eastern and Western thought 
>systems. The problem is not in acknowledging the giftedness of HPB 
>and her Masters, it is in being required to accept the whole 
>fictional package that they have been wrapped in. The problem is the 
>basic lack of honesty and forth-rightness that pervades the entire 
>Theosophical enterprise. However this can be understood as a 
>pathology common to all secret societies and 'occult' brotherhoods 
>that normally function under the cover of various forms of purposeful 
>obscuration and deceit. 
> 
>>>>>This dishonesty is even addressed by the Theosophical Society 
>Leaders themselves. Internal discussion of falsified Mahatma Letters 
>runs throughout the early Theosophical Society documents. A lot of 
>expert sophistry and word-jugglery is used to euphemize the obvious 
>lying, cheating and deception that was going on in the organization. 
>
> 
> 
>"There only remains...the position taken by some and without a
>knowledge of the rules governing these matters, that chelas sometimes
>write messages claimed to be from the Masters when they are not. this
>is an artificial position not supportable by law or rule. It is due
>to ignorance of what is and is not chelaship, and also to confusion
>between grades in discipleship. It has been used as to H.P.B.
>
>The false conclusion has first been made that an accepted chela of
>high grade may become accustomed to dictation by the Master and then
>may fall into the false pretense of giving something from himself and
>pretending it is from the Master. It is impossible. The bond in her
>case was not of such a character to be dealt with thus. One instance
>of it would destroy the possibility of any more communication from the
>teacher. It may be quite true that probationers now and then have
>imagined themselves as ordered to say so and so, but that is not the
>case of an accepted and high chela who is irrevocably pledged...This
>idea, then, ought to be abandoned; it is absurd, contrary to law, to
>rule, and to what must be the case when such relations are established
>as existed between H.P.B. and her Masters."
>W. Q. Judge
>"Masters, Adepts, Teachers and Disciples" WQJ Art. II, p. 9
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9568
> 
>**********************************************************************
>*******************************************************
>Bhakti Ananda Goswami's Conclusion
> 
>I am in general agreement with K. P. Johnson, and the propositions 
>reagrding the Kashmiri Rajas, put forth on the Esoteric and Science 
>News website.... 
> 
>"...some lineages within Sikhism combine both Hindu/ Buddhist and 
>Sufi cosmological elements in a way that closely resembles the 
>cosmology of HPB (see also the article about Theosophy and Ismaili on 
>this web site). "
> 
>I SEE THE COGNITIVE DISSONANCE OR PHILOSOPHICAL TENSION IN THE 
>THEOSOPHICAL THOUGHT SYSTEM AS BEING DUE TO AN ATTEMPT TO RECONCILE 
>THE ABSOLUTE NOTHING ANATTA DOCTRINE OF SRI LANKAN THERAVADIN 
>BUDDHISM, WITH BOTH THE THEISTIC/ PERSONAL AND ADVAITI/ IMPERSONAL 
>BRAHMAN ELEMENTS IN THE MAHATMAS' KASHMIRI FUSION OF BON, TIBETAN, 
>SUFI, VAISNAVA, SHAIVITE AND SIKH TEACHINGS. 
> 
>IF WE LOOK AT IT 'FORENSICALLY' THEN IT BREAKS IT DOWN LIKE THIS....
> 
>WHAT HAPPENED, WHAT WAS TAUGHT, WHAT IS THE EXTANT EVIDENCE TODAY ? 
> 
>WHEN DID CERTAIN THINGS OCCUR? WINDOWS OF OPPORTUNITY, 
>SYNCHRONICITY WITH POSSIBLY RELATED 
> EVENTS
> 
>WHERE WERE THE SCENES PLAYED OUT, CAN WE PLACE THE PLAYERS AT THE 
>SCENE (s) OF THE 'CRIME' 
> 
>WHY THE MOTIVES OF THE PLAYERS MUST BE ANALYZED, PERSONAL, 
>POLITICAL, RELIGIOUS..
> 
>WHO WERE THE PLAYERS, LIVING AND LITERARY AND IMAGINARY ?
> 
>HOW DID THE PLAYERS HAVE THE MEANS TO COMMIT THE ACTS ? WERE 
>THERE THE NECCESSARY 
> RESOURCES OF INTELLECT, MATERIALS AND SKILL AVAILABLE 
>TO THEM ? 
> 
>ANALYZING ALL OF THE ABOVE, I HAVE CONCLUDED THAT MOTIVE, MEANS, 
>OPPORTUNITY AND ALL OTHER REQUIREMENTS ARE SATISFIED BY THE EVIDENCE 
>FOR AN INVOLVEMENT BETWEEN HPB AND THE KASHMIRI LEADERS AS POSTULATED 
>IN THE POSTING ABOUT THE KASHMIRI MAHARAJAS. THIS WAS MY OWN 
>INDEPENDENT CONCLUSION FROM THE INTERNAL EVIDENCE IN THE MAHATAMA 
>LETTERS AND THE SECRET DOCTRINE, WHICH CONVINCED ME THAT THERE WAS A 
>STRANGELY KASHMIRI MIX OF VAISHNAVA PURANIC AND OTHER DOCTRINES IN 
>THE THEOSOPHICAL THOUGHT SYSTEM. THERE ARE SUFI-VAISHNAVA GROUPS IN 
>KASHMIR, AND THE SIKHS THEMSELVES ARE A MUSLIM-VAISHNAVA HYBRID 
>GROUP. THE SIKH GURU NANAK WAS TRADITIONALLY ASSOCIATED WITH MY OWN 
>LINEAGE OF VAISHNAVISM, AND SIKHS WORSHIP AT VISHNU TEMPLES WHEN THEY 
>ARE NOT NEAR THEIR OWN PLACES OF WORSHIP. THERE ARE VAISHNAVA-
>MAHAYANA BUDDHIST, VAISHNAVA-BON AND VAISHNAVA-ZOROASTRIAN 
>CONNECTIONS TOO, AND ALL OF THESE HYBRID GROUPS EXIST IN THE REGION 
>OF JAMMU AND KASHMIR. 
> 
>WHAT
>WHAT HAPPENED...A SYNTHESIS OF VARIOUS THOUGHT-SYSTEMS WAS FORMED 
>WITH AN OBSCURE GENEALOGY. IT WAS DOCTRINALIZED AND PROMOTED BY AN 
>ORGANIZATION FORMED FOR THAT PURPOSE. THE ORGANIZATION SUCCUMBED TO 
>THE USUAL SCHISM DYNAMICS, AND OVER TIME THE FRACTIONS OF THE 
>FRACTIONS OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SPLINTER GROUPS SATURATED THE ESOTERIC 
>WORLD WITH THEIR INHERITED SYNTHESIS, AND THE SYNTHESIS BECAME A 
>MOVEMENT.
> 
>[....THAT ORIGINAL SPIRITUALIST WESTERN ESOTERIC MOVEMENT, WHICH 
>PICKED UP THE MAHATMAS AND EASTERN ELEMENTS, CAME WEST AGAIN AND 
>BECAME EMBODIED IN COLONIAL ARYANISM. IN THE FIRST DECADES OF THE 
>20TH CENTURY THE MOVEMENT GAINED STRENGTH AND DIFFUSED GLOBALLY. BY 
>THE TIME OF THE THIRD REICH, IT HAD WIDESPREAD INFLUENCE. LATER IT 
>MORPHED THROUGH THE NEW ERA OF FLIGHT INTO ANOTHER PSEUDO-SCIENCE 
>REALM...THAT OF UFOLOGY. THE CHANNELED ENTITIES COULD NOW ALSO BE 
>EXTRATERRESTRIALS. THE ROOT RACES THEORY COULD NOW BE EXPLAINED AS 
>INVOLVING ALIEN CLONING OR DNA MANIPULATION PROJECTS. 'CONTACTEES' 
>REPORTING WHAT ALIENS TAUGHT, MADE THEM ALL SOUND LIKE THEY WERE 
>THEOSOPHISTS ! AFTER WWII THE ESOTERIC WORLD EXPLODED AND THE 
>SECRET DOCTRINES WERE NOT SECRET AT ALL ANYMORE. THE NEW AGE 
>MOVEMENT SPAWNED COUNTLESS LITTLE CHANNELING GROUPS, BROTHERHOODS, 
>SOCIETIES, MASTER-MEDIUMS ETC. THOUSANDS OF RIDICULOUS BOOKS FLOODED 
>THE WORLD WITH STORIES OF ATLANTIS, THE PYRAMIDS, LEMURIA, BENEVOLENT 
>AND MALEVOLENT ALIENS, SUPERIOR ARYANS AND EVIL ZIONIST 
>CONSPIRACIES.] 
> 
>WHEN
>WHEN DID THIS ALL BEGIN ? THE TIME FRAME IS WELL KNOWN FROM HPB'S 
>CAREER WITH CONJURING IN THE USA TO HER DEATH, AND THE FINAL 
>CONTRIBUTIONS OF OLCOTT, BESANT AND LEADBETTER ETC. THIS ERA 
>INCLUDED THE REIGN OF THE RIGHTLY SUSPECT KINGS OF KASHMIR, AND THE 
>BRITISH, GERMAN AND RUSSIAN POLITICAL INTRIGUES FOR THE CONTROL OF 
>THE INDIAN SUBCONTINENT. 
> 
>WHERE
>WHERE? WE CAN PLACE ALL OF THE KEY PLAYERS IN EACH OTHERS' COMPANY IN 
>THE SAME PLACES DURING THE RIGHT TIME-FRAMES. 
> 
>WHY
>WHY ? THE PERSONAL AND POLITICAL MOTIVES ARE VERY CLEAR AND INVOLVE 
>THE INTERNATIONAL AND INTERNAL NATIONAL POLITICAL STRUGGLES OF THE 
>DAY THAT CONCERNED HPB AND FRIENDS. 
> 
> 
>WHO
>ALTHOUGH WE HAVE NOT YET FOUND AN ORIGINAL COPY OF THE STANZAS (I 
>PERSONALLY DOUBT IF THERE WAS SUCH A TEXT) THE VAISHNAVA PURANAS AND 
>OTHER SANSKRIT LITERATURE CLEARLY PLAYED A ROLE, AND THE OTHER VERY 
>REAL PERSONS ARE QUITE WELL DOCUMENTED AS BEING INVOLVED WITH HPB AND 
>HER NETWORK. 
> 
>HOW
>THE PLAYERS HAD EVERYTHING AVAILABLE TO THEM TO ACCOMPLISH THEIR 
>MISSION. THEY HAD THE INTELLIGENCE AND EDUCATION, THE ABILITY TO 
>TRAVEL AND COMMUNICATE, TO WRITE, TO PUBLISH, TO ACCESS READING 
>MATERIALS ( THE PURANAS ETC.) AND THE ASSOCIATION OF ROYALS AND 
>LEARNED PERSONS. 
> 
> 
>THUS MOTIVE MEANS AND OPPORTUNITY ARE ALL PROVIDED WHEN ONE FOCUSES 
>ON THE KASHMIRI CONNECTIONS IN THE GENESIS OF THE THEOSOPHICAL 
>SOCIETY. THE DIMINISHING INFLUENCE OF SRI LANKAN THERAVADIN 
>BUDDHIST PURE-ANATTA DOCTRINES AND INCREASING PRESENCE OF SIKH AND 
>VAISHNAVA OR VEDANTIC TEACHINGS INDICATES AN EVOLUTION OF 
>THEOSOPHICAL THOUGHT OVER TIME. THERE WERE NO DOUBT MANY INFLUENCES 
>ON HPB, AND IT SEEMS THAT THE INFLUENCE OF SOME SRI LANKAN THERAVADIN 
>BUDDHISTS ON HPB MUST HAVE BEEN ECLIPSED BY THAT OF HER KASHMIRI 
>MASTERS. REGARDING THE ADVAITI INFLUENCE, EVENTUAL REJECTION BY THE 
>ARYA SAMAJ AND SUBBA ROW'S ADVAITAN GROUP SHOWS THAT THE THEOSOPHICAL 
>THOUGHT SYSTEM WAS TOO ECLECTIC FOR THOSE GROUPS TO EMBRACE. 
> 
>IN CONCLUSION I FEEL A CONSENSUS HAS FORMED IN WHICH MY OWN 
>PERSPECTIVE AGREES WITH THAT OF K. P. JOHNSON AND OTHERS REGARDING A 
>KASHMIRI CONNECTION TO THE DOMINANT EASTERN INFLUENCE ON THE 
>DEVELOPMENT OF HPB'S THEOSOPHY. AS A VAISHNAVA AWARE OF SOME OF THE 
>STRANGE VAISHNAVA-RELATED GROUPS IN THE REGION OF KASHMIR, I CAN SEE 
>THESE INFLUENCES IN THE VEDIC-VAISHNAVA RELATED SANSKRIT VOCABULARY 
>AND TEXTS EMPLOYED BY THE MAHATMAS IN THEIR TEACHINGS, AND BY HPB 
>IN "THE SECRET DOCTRINE". 
> 
>THIS KASHMIRI SYNTHESIS WITH WESTERN OCCULT TEACHINGS WAS WHAT THE 
>THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY MAHATMAS AND HPB HAD MASTERED. THIS IS WHAT 
>THEY WERE THE MASTERS OF. Case Closed.
> 
>Bhakti Ananda Goswami 
> 
>http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/stanzasofdz.html 
>
>http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/invhindbuddh.html 
>
>http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/secretd.html