Re: Theos-World Bad Karma plus immoral plus ignorant
Dec 09, 2002 12:09 PM
by Steven Levey
Hello wry-This notion of "fabrication of the Masters" seems odd to me. In
other words, what is the point of fabrication if history is repleate with
their intervention? Now you might say that this is up to dispute. But, it
can only be disputed if the definition one holds of the concept of
"Mahatama" leaves one with overly miraculous or fairytale beliefs regarding
their existance.
This is not a faith belief issue, they are because they have to be, given
the actual possiblity for perfection which exists in all beings. Even from a
Darwinian perspective they are the fittest. We suffer with how extraordinary
a being can be, compared to us. We are always lowering our standards in
relation to our ignorance of greatness.
Oh, there are also people and systems which need them (Mahatmas) for their
own purposes and consequently have fabricated their existance.
When a group or an individual does this then some other group has to respond
defensively that Mahatmas either cannot exist or certainly the claim makers
are making false claims, in the event that the Mahatmas are given credit for
existing.
History is repleate with this nonsense also, and if I were a Mahatma I would
remain silent and work behind the scenes. But, apparently their needs are
for the greater good and coming out into our world, as problematic as it can
be, is done for purposes of their own and needs we are ignorant of.
If the profound actions of different individuals on the world scene are seen
as the actions of "Great Souls" then they have been here throughout history.
Definition is an important thing here.
What are "Great Souls"? Ghandi refused the applilation of Mahatma. Not
because the concept is some how false, but because it means so much to him
as to be wrongly applied when attached to his name.
This dispute is similar to those who really cannot believe that the notion
of theosophy can exist. They think this because the idea of truth in all
areas of human endeavor is seen as relative and absolutes are just not
possible to them. Also, theosophy has been so poorly represented by those
useing the name with a large t (T).
But, Theosophy does exist, (how can it not-things and people really do work
in particular ways from a star to a stone) regardless of how poorly we or
others represent it to the world, and so do, of human neccesity, the
Mahatmas.
Believe me our doubts say more about us than it can about them.
Steve L.
From: "wry" <wry1111@earthlink.net>
Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Bad Karma plus immoral plus ignorant
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 22:56:19 -0800
Hi Steve. Your message is very interesting. I will make a few comments. I
used to believe it was wrong to give Santa Claus to a child, but as I began
to understand more and more the fascinating subject of allegory, I came to
realize, it is a gift. I personally believe it is important for children to
believe, as long as that child's reason is developed appropriately at each
appropriate stage. When I was a child, Grimms Fairy Tales gave me great
hope. It is amazing that some "educated" parents will not give these
stories
to their children. It is natural for a child to believe in Santa Claus and
when the time is appropriate, the child will let go and move to the next
level.
I have had the fortune to receive much Buddhist teaching, though I consider
myself to be only a bare beginner about to enter the Mahayana path. Anyway,
Buddhism is very interesting in that it teaches that there are different
kinds of religions appropriate for people at different stages of
development
and that it is not right action to interfere with this. It is said in the
tenets of the Madhyamika School of Mahayana Buddhism that the Buddha taught
different and even sometimes seemingly contradictory teachings for people
who were at different stages of development and out of these different
teachings were developed the four schools of Buddhism.The tolerance of some
of these great Tibetan teachers for what they consider to be less developed
forms of religion is amazing. I will go on and make some commentary on
your message, which follows.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Levey" <levey_steven@hotmail.com>
To: "theos talk" <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Bad Karma plus immoral plus ignorant
> Hello wry-
>
> I have had good luck explaining to my daughter that all who give to
others
around that period of time dedicated to the great Light Bringers (oh-11/17
to 12/25 or so) are doing the work of Santa Cause. Believe me, I have felt
as if I am off of the proverbial hook and actually as if I have said
something to her that was useful. So, there is and there is not a Santa
Clause in my book.
>
> It has always been a source of amusement to me to watch a Miracle on
34th
Street at this time of year, and see the Court being forced to admit the
existence of Santa Clause, because the federal government has to. This
based
in the mail at the Post office to Santa Clause (as the story goes). I work
for the Government so I therefore have to believe.
>
> Besides, It is motive that determines karma, so let the "chips fall
where
they may" as long as hearts are in the right place.
>
Wry:Yes, it is motive that determines karma. What you say here is very
beautiful.
> What aught to be explaining away is the relationship of Christmas
belonging to the Church. I would love to see its reattachment to the Winter
solstice as the central celestial occurrence which marks the return of the
Son and the sun back to the Western Hemisphere. This kind of thinking
allows
the Light bringers (Mahatmas) back into humanity at large as represented by
the sun and marked by the "longer and longer" days.
I always try to educate people about the pagan origin of Christmas and its
relationship to the winter solstice.(Once when I was in my mid twenties I
was a pagan for about a year, not a member of a group, but with Pan. It was
profound but I outgrew this fast, as I am at heart a monotheist, even now
that I am a Buddhist. I think most people understand about Christmas and
the winter solstice on an intuitive level. Being alive is always about
light
and at this time of year, especially in cold climates, it is sometimes
difficult to keep the faith. The Jewish festival of lights is interesting,
too, in relationship to the winter solstice, One tradition involves the
spinning of the dradel until the participants run out of coins and the
winner gets them all. To me, the spinning for the coins is about something
profound which is celestial, but I cannot quite put my finger on it enough
to verbalize it.
The problem about tracing the Mahatmas back to an individual experiences
with certain people and saying Madame Blavatsky fabricated it or modeled it
out of that, is that this is too simplistic to explain much of anything. It
is, in my opinion, not valuable, and even destructive. People tend to think
in terms of either this or that. Because a person fabricates something,
they
assume there are no masters. Or because a person wants to believe there are
masters, they assume there is no fabrication of masters. The truth is that
there can be both a deliberate fabrication of masters and also real masters
existing in the same time and space, each connected materially, and perhaps
one cannot exist without the other. It is a miracle and in the realm of the
miraculous. It is the believing that "I" can hold on to this material that
is deadly and will lead into the nether. This is the illusion, as has been
suggested in some very insightful messages recently.
What is the inner meaning of Santa Claus? Has anyone on here who is as
deeply interested in word roots as I am tried to ponder this? We have
sixteen days left before Christmas. For anyone who is interested, try to
figure this out, but if you do, do not tell, ever, as we would not want to
rob anyone of the joy of discovering for himself, tomorrow, next year or
even someday. If I find the poem I made up last Christmas to give some
clues
to this word puzzle, I will put it out here, but I am too busy. Actually, I
am going to make up a different clue poem right now that will be good
enough: "In Steve L's message you will find a clue. Bear with the puzzle
till you link anew. My note to Bhakti tells you something, too." Wry
>
> Just some ideas-Steve L.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: wry
> Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 1:36 AM
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Theos-World Bad Karma plus immoral plus ignorant
>
> To whom this may concern: Is it or is it not bad karma, immoral and
ignorant to tell a young child there is no Santa Claus? Is it valuable and
important and natural for this child to believe in the existence of Santa
Claus? Moreover, IS there a Santa Claus, and are there really elves and
fairies? Everyone who is really anyone knows the answer to this one.
>
> Moreover, are there actually masters, both living and "dead" (who are
still alive)? I, personally, who have done much experimentation with the
occult, am here to suggest that It is perhaps both bad karma and even
dangerous to pursue this line of questioning of Madame Blavatsky and the
so-called derivation of the masters any further, as, in respect to this,
the
die is already cast. Perhaps the physical universe is constructed in such a
way as to offer an explanation for the "masters" that is both miraculous
and also mundane
>
> Remember to sprinkle everything with just a little bity of salt, not too
much and not too little. This has more to do with bread making than with
magic. With this in mind, we can get down to the five- minutes -at-a-time
Work of mastering a situation which is most problematic, life on earth, in
such a way that something within is raised gently to heaven without losing
touch with both the phytsical earth and also an inner earth or ground.
>
> If you sense or feel a master by your side as you are going about your
day
and attempting to make a certain bread, keep your mind on your hands
kneading the dough and do not worry about the masters or not-masters. In
this way, simple daily activities will take on a greater significance and
everything will assume a shape that is already its own star, Home. Wry
>
>
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