Theos-Talk Archives (November 2002 Message tt00898)

Nov 27

Dear Friends and Mic:

As far as I know no one is absolutely certain about the future, and we
cannot anticipate unlimited pain just for living, can we? Nor can we
think sanely that killing the body will relieve us of suffering. The
logic is quite unclear there.

I would say that the may to cure or to reduce personal suffering is to
change the subject and see if we can relieve someone else's suffering.
We will cease dwelling on the "poor me" aspect and see if we can
alleviate another. In this the sharing is often a cure.

As to inconveniencing others, that this a constructed thought, and in
a family we don't bother about this unless someone is obviously taking
advantage of others, and then this has to be stopped. To continue
being a victim is no better than making someone else a victim of our
personal whims and desires.
I don't see any balance or equity in taking advantage of another's
good nature, or ignorance, or weakness of character. That indeed, is
a bad thing if it is concocted and designed for one's personal
benefit, and another's discomfort. What permanence is there in such a
condition? Are we improved by it ?

Death is not the "ultimate sacrifice." The ultimate sacrifice is
living to do evil things. And we are so compromised by our
environment and the general way of thinking and behaving, that we fall
into the same kind of trap.

One might say that the failure to live and act righteously at all
times is a horrible kind of sacrifice. There is nothing SACRED in
such a life at all.

Look dispassionately at our world. Is it a heaven or a "hell ?"

As to being "fundamentalist" or not does not matter one whit. We are
all in this world together, and can't escape that, even if we never
see or talk to each other in this life again.

As I look at things I believe we all have similar opportunities for
study and thinking about what we discover. Having come into contact
with this system, perhaps it might be wise to learn something from the
age-old philosophy of Theosophy, or -- or we all seem to be wandering
off pretty much on our own, in paths that seem to me vague and
pointless. They are largely directed by our emotional nature.

Problem is we read about Theosophy and we don't like its psychology.
What? Are we really responsible for all we do? Am I going to be
"punished" for my bad thinking and words and deeds? So, if we already
know they are BAD, why do any of them? Now that is the real problem.
For whose benefit is anything BAD done ?

Next, if it is unfair and unjust to others, why would it be unfair and
unjust for us to directly receive the results of our doings? I would
say in a world where this kind of consideration is placed first, there
is something radically wrong.

Theosophy says when we are perverse in any way we impress our own
atoms with the perversity. Having done that they are only able to
transit to us (eventually) the kind of perverse impression we
originally placed in and on them. Our problem is we think the atoms
are poor, small defenseless thing, instead of living brothers of a
junior level of experience. We ought to be educating them in
righteousness and we are not. So all suffer. We suffer until the
balance is adjusted and we do that "good" which harmonizes the past.

But our particular likes and dislikes do not run the world or our
universe. Like it, or not, the laws of mathematics, chemistry,
physics,
and of biology, engineering, etc.. are all pretty well intractable.
They are there. We all have studied some aspects of those and make
use of them. We make use of the fact that they are steady and hence
dependable.

So who is, and where is there, variance and independence, and either
trustworthiness or untrustworthiness? It seems to be largely in man's
minds, character, and feeling nature (conjoined to the mind). There
is the large confusion. Is mankind and each individual a pawn in the
world? Our independence fights this fiercely. Why ? If we can
answer that honestly and squarely, then a great deal is learned --
about ourselves, and about our situation vis-à-vis others.

No one is a "theosophist" since it is not a "religion." At best we
are all "students of Theosophy" and our "ranking," if any, is only
symbolic of the level of understanding we have secured of the rules
and laws of NATURE. It is important to realize we are in our highest
most moral natures spiritual beings. the body and its likes or
dislikes are small potatoes compared to the SPIRIT within us. -- as
it is everywhere, it forms the basis for "brotherhood." This is
because we cannot escape out of it, nor can anyone else. So how do we
make the best of this situation? Does denial make any difference ?
We may lie to run away, but then who is pursuing us ?

We are usually inclined to kick and resent the fact that we do live in
a universe of law. And if we weren't so very "independent" we would
set to work to discover those and see if we would not be benefited by
using and working with them instead of resenting this fact and trying
to work against them and break them if we think we can get away with
it.

NATURE and our UNIVERSE have been here longer than we have and they
give us a ready-made situation for living.

We did not build our own bodies, and yet we live in them and treat the
as our possessions.

well I certainly let off a head of steam here

Best wishes,

Dal'

=======

-----Original Message-----
From: Mic F
Sent:	Wednesday, November 27, 2002 6:33 PM
To:
Subject:	RE: SUICIDE -- IS IT DANGEROUS ? -- tricky situation for a
theosophist


Dear Dallas,

So in the situation that I described am I correct in
believing that if that lady was a theosophist (let us
say for arguments sake a fundamentalist) then she
would have lived her life out naturally and with the
knowledge that any pain she was going through was
merely her karmic responsibility? Further, any
inconvenience that she would cause to those who had to
look after her was ultimately their own karmic
responsibility?

I think that this is a most interesting situaiton.
Here on the one hand you have a person who is willing
to make the ultimate sacrifice so she wouldn't trouble
those who are dear to her but on the other hand she is
ending her life prematurely. I think another way to
look at the situation would be that as a theosophist
making sacrifices is important for ones personal
development and hence sacrificing ones own life can be
seen as undergoing a personal development, albeit
quite extreme. The subsequent pain that ensues
following a premature end to life, as you described in
your post, is part of the sacrifice one was willing to
take. A tricky situation indeed and one I hope I never
find myself in.

Regards,
Mic Forster


--- dalval14@earthlink.net wrote:


> Nov 27 2002
>
> Dear MKR
>
> Re: Suicide Is it Dangerous ?
>
> I think you are right. But thinking over our
> potentials is important.
> We can't do that if we are "dead." So long as we
> remain alive we can
> help others if we desire to do that.
>
> Suicide, says theosophy is dangerous. Only the
> physical body is
> killed. The Inner spiritual Self remains alive on
> the astral plane
> for a period equivalent to the length of life on
> earth. But the
> blessed peace of rest (as in sleep) becomes denied.
> Imagine the
> terrible torture of being kept awake and aware
CUT