Re: Theism Can't Honestly Be Dismissed
Nov 23, 2002 09:32 AM
by Steve Stubbs
--- In theos-talk@y..., "rnewman2003" <robertnewman@e...> wrote:
> This is simply begging the question; i.e., assuming what you have
> yet established.
Not really. It is a scientific fact, for example, that the color red
does not exist in nature, but only in our consciousness. Red is
therefore said not to be real but ideal, ideal being a word used in
philosophy to represent things of the mind, such as ideas. Red is
therefore said to be phenomenal (meaning it exists in the mind) but
not noumenal (meaning it exists objectively to ourselves.) So if
someone said he read a Krishna comic book and then thought he shook
hands with Krishna, his experience might be of great value, but it
would not be an experience of ultimate reality.
> At least since the time of Shankara (and his Western counterparts),
> there has been a popular tendency in esoteric circles to
> think, "Well, OF COURSE the ultimate reality must be featureless
> undescribable!" But there is no logic here, unless it's the logic
> suicidal negation;
Not true. See the above. The concept of voidness existed long
before Sankara was born.
There is an inferior technique recommended by Vedantins such as
Sivananda and Theravadin priests such as Buddhaghosa in which one
cultivates a disgust for the world. However, this merely creates
conflict in the mind and does not liberate one from attachment.
> Similarly, the simple negation of
> experience is the poor man's view of ultimate reality
I don't think so, given what "the simple negation of experience" is
an euphemism for in this sentence. If you want to say that there are
a lot of self styled gure out there who don't know what they are
talking about and practices which are ancient and totally
wrongheaded, then we agree.
> contradicted by the reports of mystics, especially in the Vaishnava
> tradition, of features or "phenomena" of a different order, to be
Sometime when you get a chance, could you briefly tell us which
autobiogaphies you sre referring to, and why you think phenomenal
experience is actually ultimate reality?
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