Theos-Talk Archives (November 2002 Message tt00624)

DATING THE RIG VEDA... PLEASE NOTE THAT THE PURUSHA SUKTA IS 
GENERALLY CONSIDERED ONE OF THE OLDEST, IF NOT THE OLDEST OF ALL THE 
RIG VEDIC HYMNS. 


cross post excerpt from the indiancivilization yahoo egroup
  
From: "gktk_us" 
Date: Wed Nov 20, 2002 10:49 am
Subject: Age of Veda: Was Re: How accurate is the current version of 
Rig Veda?

Update on the continuing search :)

--- In IndianCivilization@y..., "Raj Mohanka" <nmohanka@y...> wrote:
> 
> The age (of Rg Veda) you mentioned, 7000 years is a bit too far in 
my opinion. 
> From the works of scriptural and historical experts, I believe a 
> consensus is forming that the Vedas go back to the 4000/3000 B.C.E. 
> timeframe which puts them at 6000 years old at a MAXIMUM with 5000 
> years old probably more likely.

Cross posted from "sarasvatisindhu@yahoogroups.com"

Message # 122: Date: Sun Jan 16, 2000 2:45 am
Subject: Dating the Veda: 10000 BC; celestial key

B.G. Siddharth, 1999, The Celestial Key to the Vedas: Discovering the 
origins of the world's oldest civilization, Rochester, Vermont, Inner 
Traditions.= 


This work provides an astronomical key to the date of the
Veda-dating it ca. 10,000 BC. 
 


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--- In theos-talk@y..., "Bhakti Ananda Goswami" <bhakti.eohn@v...> 
wrote:
> DEAR DANIEL CALDWELL AND FELLOW THEO-SOPHISTS,
> 
> I AM DELIGHTED THAT YOU MR. CALDWELL, HAVE TAKEN THIS DISCUSSION TO 
> ITS EARLIEST EXTANT SOURCE IN THE RIG VEDA. IN DEFERENCE TO THE 
> THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY ADVAITA VEDANTIC PERSPECTIVE, LET US REFERE TO 
A 
> TRANSLATION OF THE VEDIC HYMNS DONE BY THE WORLD FAMOUS ADVAITA 
> VEDANTIC SANSKRIT SCHOLAR, FATHER RAIMUNDO PANIKKAR. IN HIS "THE 
> VEDIC EXPERIANCE MANTRA MANJARI AN ANTHOLOGY OF THE VEDAS FOR 
MODERN 
> MAN AND CONTEMPORARY CELEBRATION" (1977, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA 
> PRESS, BERKELEY AND LOS ANGELES, USA, ISBN # 0-520-02854-6 ), THE 
> HYMN YOU HAVE PROVIDED BELOW IS ON PAGE 58. THIS IS CITED IN THE 
> CHAPTER TITLED ADI, OR PRELUDE. IT IS THE NASADIYA SUKTA, RIG VEDA 
> X, I29. 
> 
> I WOULD LIKE TO RECOMMEND THIS ANTHOLOGY TO ALL THOSE THEOSOPHISTS 
> INTERESTED IN AVAILING THEMSELVES OF MORE 'DIRECT' (VIA ENGLISH) 
> KNOWLEDGE OF THE ASTOUNDING VEDIC-VAISHNAVA HYMNS. 
> 
> I WOULD NOT ALWAYS TRANSLATE THESE HYMNS THE SAME WAY AS FATHER 
> PANIKKAR, BECAUSE I HAVE AT MY ADVANTAGE AN INTIMATE FAMILIARITY 
WITH 
> THE STILL LIVING PURUSHA-WORSHIPING TRADITION OF THESE HYMNS.   
> HOWEVER, FOR AN ADVAITA VEDANTIC READING, HIS ANTHOLOGY IS 
EXCELLENT, 
> AND WOULD BE ESPECIALLY NICE AND INSPIRING FOR THEO-SOPHISTS OF THE 
> HPB-RELATED THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY . BY THE WAY IT SHOULD BE NOTED 
THAT 
> VAISHNAVISM HAS A TRADITION OF ADVAITIC THOUGHT, BUT THIS IS AN 
> INTEGRAL PART OF THE 'BRAHMAN REALIZATION' ASPECT OF THE WORSHIP OF 
> SRI KRISHNA'S (ADI PURUSHA'S) PERSONAL BODILY EFFULGENCE, CALLED 
THE 
> BRAHMA JYOTI. (BRAHMAN=BRAHMA JYOTI.)  
> 
> THE VEDAS AND UPANISHADS ETC. DESCRIBE THREE KINDS OF GOD 
> REALIZATION, THAT OF THE IMPERSONAL BRAHMAN IS THE FIRST AND LEAST 
> INCLUSIVE, NOT THE MOST. IT IS FOUND IN MANY RELIGIONS AND 
ASSOCIATED 
> WITH THE UNITIVE EXPERIANCE OF 'NATURE MYSTICISM'. EXPERIENCE OF 
THE 
> BRAHMAN OR PARABRAHMN, AS IT IS SOMETIMES CALLED IN THEOSOPHY, IS 
> CONSIDERED IN VAISHNAVA ADVAITA VEDANTA AS THE FIRST RUNG ON THE 
> LADDER OF GOD-AND-SELF REALIZATION. THEN THE SECOND RUNG IS THE 
> REALIZATION OF PARAMATMAN (THE IMMANENT, PERSONAL HOLY SPIRIT AND 
> IT'S BELOVED JIVATMA), WHICH INCLUDES BRAHMAN VISION, AND FINALLY 
THE 
> SUMMIT AND MOST INCLUSIVE, WHICH IS BHAGAVAN REALIZATION, IN WHICH 
> THE BRAHMAN, PARAMATMAN AND BHAGAVAN, THE ORIGINAL SUPREME 
> PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD ARE ALL EXPERIANCED / REALIZED OR 
> DIRECTLY 'SEEN'.   
> 
> THAT BEING SAID, IF YOU READ FATHER PANIKKAR'S TRANSLATION, THE 
SAME 
> SANSKRIT WORD (KAMA) THAT IS GENERALLY TRANSLATED TODAY 
BY 'HINDUS'  
> AND BY ADVAITIS AS "DESIRE" IS TRANSLATED BY FR. PANIKKAR 
AS "LOVE".  
> AS A VAISHNAVA, I KNOW THAT THE ORIGIN OF THE WORD KAMA, IS 
> ASSOCIATED WITH THE NAME OF SRI KRISHNA OR HARI AS KAMA. "GOD IS 
> LOVE". KAMA IS ASSOCIATED WITH THE THEOLOGICAL CONCEPT OF LOBHA / 
> INTENSE DESIRING IN VAISHNAVA BRIDAL MYSTICISM. LOBHA=LOVE. THE 
> ORIGIN, OBJECT, SUBJECT AND ACT OF "LOVE", IS THE ORIGINAL 
KAMADEVA, 
> SRI KRISHNA OR HARI. THE LORD OF ALL HEARTS IS HARI OF THE HARI-
> DAYA, HRI-DAYA, HRID = HEART (HRIDAYA = KARDIA ETC. ), INCLUDING 
> THE 'HEART' OR 'CORE'(HARI again) OF ALL HUMANKIND AND ALL MATERIAL 
> AND IMMATERIAL REALMS AND WORLDS, OR LOKAS (LOCATIONS).   
> 
> 
> THE FINAL REFERENCE TO THE ONE, HE, THE OBSERVER IN THE HIGHEST 
> HEAVEN POSSIBLY KNOWING "NOT", IS A DIRECT REFERENCE TO THE 
DOCTRINE 
> OF YOGA MAYA, IN WHICH GOD 'COVERS' (HIDES OR DENIES) A PORTION OF 
> HIS OWN CONCIOUSNESS 'OVER' WITH YOGA MAYA FOR THE PURPOSE OF 
PREMA, 
> DIVINE LOVE. THE REALM OF BHAKTI LILA EXISTS WITHIN THE MAYA 
OR 'NOT-
> ME' PLEASURE POTENTIA OF GODHEAD, IN THE ORIGINAL GIVER'S (ADI 
> PURUSHA'S) FEMININE RECIEVING SHAKTI OR SHEKINAH. ONE OF THE ADI 
> SHAKTI'S POTENCIES IS MAYA, ILLUSION, BUT THERE ARE TWO FORMS OF 
> MAYA. THE ATHEISTS ONLY KNOW ABOUT MAHA-MAYA OR THE KIND OF 
ILLUSION 
> DEALT WITH BY THE ADVAITIS AND BUDDHISTS. HOWEVER THAT MAYA IS 
ONLY 
> CO-EXTENSIVE WITH THE SAHA WORLD OF BIRTH, DEATH, DISEASE, AND OLD 
> AGE, WHILE THE ORIGINAL TRANSCENDENTAL MAYA, YOGA MAYA, IS ALSO 
> ASSOCIATED WITH THE IMMATERIAL HEAVEN-OF-HEAVENS, VAIKUNTHAS (PURE 
> LAND) OR PARADISE. WHEN AND WHERE YOGA MAYA IN UNION WITH ADI 
PURUSHA 
> IS REALIZED WITHIN A MATERIAL WORLD, THE 'KINGDOM OF HEAVEN' IS 
MADE 
> MANIFEST WITHIN IT ! THERE 'GOD-WHO-IS-LOVE' REIGNS SUPREME, AND 
ALL 
> THE QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED!
> 
> THE THEME OF THE BELOW IS THEREFORE THE MYSTERIOUS CREATIVE LOVE 
> UNION OF HARI AND SHAKTI (ELI AND SHEKINAH, HARA AND SHAKTI, HRIH 
AND 
> SHAKTI), GOD ESS AS LOVE, WITHIN THE 'EMPTY' SHELL OF A SAHA-WORLD 
> COSMIC MANIFESTATION. 
> 
> THE FIRST STATE REFERS TO THE 'EMPTY' COSMIC MANIFESTATION, THE EGG 
> BEFORE THE ENTRANCE OF THE ADI PURUSHA. 
> 
> THE "ONE BREATHED" IS A REFERENCE TO THE SPIRIT-IMPREGNATING BREATH 
> OF HARI AS EITHER MAHA VISHNU OR GARBODAKSAYI VISHNU, 
WHO 'BREATHES' 
> THE BREATH OF LIFE (SPIRITUS) INTO THE EMPTY EGG-LIKE COSMIC SHELL.
> 
> THE QUESTION POSED AT THE END OF THIS HYMN IS ANSWERED IN DEPTH AND 
> DETAIL IN THE OTHER VEDIC HYMNS, AND BHAKTI SHASTRAS (TRADITIONAL 
> VEDIC-VAISHNAVA AND SHIVA-SHAKTI SCRIPTURES OF DIVINE LOVE). 
> 
> PAX AND PREMA TO YOU MR. CALDWELL !
> 
> BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI
> 
> -- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" <comments@b...> wrote:
> > Below I give 4 different versions of the remarkable "Hymn of 
> > Creation" from the Rig Veda.  
> > 
> > I remember when I was in my teens and having what later I would 
> learn 
> > were mystical experiences, I ran across the "Hymn of Creation."  
It 
> > awakened in me other inner experiences many of which I still do 
not 
> > understand.  
> > 
> > Later in 1968 I discovered Theosophy and the writings of Madame 
> > Blavatky. I was literally amazed when I first read the Stanzas 
of 
> > Dzyan and HPB's commentaries on the Stanzas. These stanzas also 
> > awakened something in me very reminiscent of my experiences with 
> the 
> > Hymn of Creation.
> > 
> > Several years later in the 70s, in the library where I was 
working, 
> I 
> > found a book written by Georg Feuerstein and Jeanine Miller.  
> > Information on the latest reprint of this book can be found at:
> > 
> > http://www.parkstpress.com/titles/essyog.htm
> > The Essence of Yoga: Essays on the Development of Yogic 
Philosophy 
> > from the Vedas to Modern Times
> > 
> > I was greatly impressed by the whole book especially the 
following 
> > chapters:
> > 
> > "Some Notes on Rgvedic Interpretation" (J. Miller and G. 
> Feuerstein) 
> > "The Hymn of Creation. A Philosophical Interpretation" (J. 
Miller) 
> > "Forerunners of Yoga: The Kesin Hymn" (J. Miller) 
> > "The Heart of Rgvedic Religion: Agni, Flame Divine" (J. Miller)
> > 
> > The chapter on "The Hymn of Creation" by Jeanine Miller is highly 
> > recommended, especially for students of THE SECRET DOCTRINE.
> > 
> > Anyway, below are the 4 versions.
> > 
> > Daniel
> > 
> > -----------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > Hymn of Creation
> > Version 1
> > 
> > Neither non-being nor being was as yet, Neither was airy space 
nor 
> > heavens beyond; What was enveloped? And where? Sheltered by whom? 
> And 
> > was there water? Bottomless, unfathomed? 
> > 
> > Neither was there death nor immortality, Nor was there any sign 
> then 
> > of night or day; Totally windless, by itself, the One breathed; 
> > Beyond that, indeed, nothing whatever was. 
> > 
> > In the Principle darkness concealed darkness; Undifferentiated 
> surge 
> > was this whole world. The pregnant point covered by the form 
> matrix, 
> > From conscious fervor, mightily, brought forth the One. 
> > 
> > In the Principle, thereupon, rose desire, Which of consciousness 
> was 
> > the primeval seed. Then the wise, searching within their hearts, 
> > perceived That in non-being lay the bond of being. 
> > 
> > Stretched crosswise was their line, a ray of glory. Was there a 
> > below? And was there an above? There were sowers of seeds and 
> forces 
> > of might: Potency from beneath and from on high the Will. 
> > 
> > Who really knows, who could here proclaim Whence this creation 
> flows, 
> > where is its origin? With this great surge the Gods made their 
> > appearance. Who therefore knows from where it did arise? 
> > 
> > This flow of creation, from where it did arise, Whether it was 
> > ordered or was not, He, the Observer, in the highest heaven, He 
> alone 
> > knows, unless…He knows it not.
> > 
> > -----------------------------------------------------