Theos-Talk Archives (November 2002 Message tt00156)

Hi Brian and all of you,

A friendly smile. I also use some words with "caps" - so that some learned
readers will be able to read better.

My Sufilight answer:
1.
If you don't know that, well how can your Ignorance then have any bearing at
all ?
Or are you just playing stupid ?
Even if the Mahatma Letters all of them were fraud, I would say - Even fraud
CAN contain wisdom ! Do you not agree on that ?
Theosophy is the same as the Ancient WISDOM Teaching of all ages past. And
you ask me what importance Wisdom has ?

Wisdom is clever and understands FRAUD better !!!

Brian wrote for instance:
"THE 'WISDOM' IN THEM IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A SUPERIOR
> KNOWLEDGE
> > AND VISION, POSSESSED AND SEEN BY ANCIENT BEINGS OR AGELESS
> > BEINGS OUTSIDE OF TIME. IT IS THE INFORMATION / KNOWLEDGE
> > BASE OF PERSONS WITH A DISTINCT TIME-LIMITED FRAME OF
> > REFERENCE."

Why should we stop developing wisdom? What is SUPERIOR knowledge to you ?


2.
You could try to answer my questions in the previuos email I send. Would you
do that ?

3.
On the - Brian-and-friends-website - the following can be found on what is
understood as "wisdom" :
"This expose begins with one of the most totalizing of modern myths:
Theosophy. Privileged spokespersons present themselves as the sole
legitimate conduits of ancient wisdom. Contenders are ruthlessly fought with
an array of verbal arguments as well as practical measures. "

My Sufilight view is:
TRUE Theosophy a such disagrees deeply with this above assumption about what
Theosophy really is, and which you and your friends website mentions.
Some organizations of Theosophy and some people who dare calling themselves
Theosophists MIS-REPRESENTS, what theosophy really is!
Theosophy is the Ancient WISDOM Teaching of all ages past.
There are today a lot of people, which could be termed spokepersons on
Theosophy - i.e. The Wisdom Teaching of all ages past. Theosophy are - not
only - existing where that label "Theosophy" are being used.
Try this website, which also contains Teaching on Wisdom - or Theosophy
without really referring to Blavatsky. It does however not put forward all
the teachings of Wisdom - only some of it. http://www.sufis.org/shah.html.
And this on mind-manipulation also http://www.ishkbooks.com/CE/index.html
There are other websites like this. There are really not many of them. But
only a few. Most of the similar ones - are fanatical or biased in their mode
of opreating - and not Theosophical. They are often stock with what we use
to call - the dead-letter ignorance. (Maybe you don't know what the 7 keys
are. Try the "The Secret Doctrine" written by H. P. Blavatsky ,
vol 1., p.165, 264-5, 310-??, 325, 464 --- and vol 2. p. 22, 334-35 and
more...)

Below are 5 examples:
>>>
Here an example from "The Secret Doctrine", vol1., p. 265:
"To make the whole clearer and to show at the same time the enormous
difference in the spirit of interpretation and the original meaning of the
same symbols between the ancient Eastern Occultists and the Jewish Kabalists
we refer the reader to Book II., "The Holy of Holies.*"
* Phallic worship has developed only with the loss of the keys to the true
meaning of the symbols. It was the last and most fatal turning point from
the highway of truth and divine knowledge into the side path of fiction,
raised into dogma through human falsification and hierarchic ambition.

>>>
Here an example from "The Secret Doctrine", vol1., p. 310-11:
"The many-sided facets of the mystery language have led to the adoption of
widely varied dogmas and rites in the exotericism of the Church rituals. It
is they, again, which are at the origin of most of the dogmas of the
Christian Church, e.g., the seven Sacraments, the Trinity, the Resurrection;
the seven capital Sins and the seven Virtues. The seven keys to the mystery
tongue, however, having always been in

------------------------------------------------------------------------
[[Vol. 1, Page]] 311 EGYPT'S MANY RELIGIONS.

the keeping of the highest among the initiated Hierophants of antiquity, it
is only the partial use of a few out of the seven which passed, through the
treason of some early Church Fathers -- ex-initiates of the Temples -- into
the hands of the new sect of the Nazarenes. Some of the early Popes were
Initiates, but the last fragments of their knowledge have now fallen into
the power of the Jesuits, who have turned them into a system of sorcery."

>>>
Here an example from "The Secret Doctrine", vol1., p. 318-19:

But while supposing that the whole cycle of the universal mystery language
will not be mastered for whole centuries to come, even that which has been
hitherto discovered in the Bible by some scholars is quite sufficient to
demonstrate the claim -- mathematically. Judaism having availed itself of
two keys out of the seven, and these two keys having been now rediscovered,
it becomes no longer a matter of individual speculation and hypothesis,
least of all of "coincidence," but one of a correct reading of the Bible
texts, as anyone acquainted with arithmetic reads and verifies an addition
or total.* A few years longer and this system will kill the dead letter of
the Bible, as it will that of all the other exoteric faiths, by showing the
dogmas in their real, naked meaning.

And then this undeniable meaning, however incomplete, will unveil the
mystery of Being, besides changing entirely the modern scientific systems of
Anthropology, Ethnology and especially that of Chronology. The element of
Phallicism, found in every God-name and narrative in the Old (and to some
degree in the New) Testament, may also in time considerably change modern
materialistic views in Biology and Physiology.

Divested of their modern repulsive crudeness, such views of nature and man,
on the authority of the celestial bodies and their mysteries,

[[Vol. 1, Page]] 319 MOSES COPIED FROM SARGON.

will unveil the evolutions of the human mind and show how natural was such a
course of thought. The so-called phallic symbols have become offensive only
because of the element of materiality and animality in them.

(Footnotes)
* All we have said in Isis is now found corroborated in the "Egyptian
Mystery; or The Source of Measures," by those readings of the Bible with the
numerical and geometrical keys thereto.


>>>
Here an another example from "The Secret Doctrine", vol1., p. 325:
The SEVEN KEYS open the mysteries, past and future, of the seven great Root
Races, as of the seven Kalpas. Though the genesis of man, and even the
esoteric geology, will surely be rejected by Science just as much as the
Satanic and pre-Adamic races, yet if having no other way out of their
difficulties the Scientists have to choose between the two, we feel certain
that, Scripture notwithstanding, once the mystery language is approximately
mastered, it is the archaic teaching that will be accepted.

>>>
"The Secret Doctrine", vol2., p.22:
All the words and sentences placed in brackets in the Stanzas and
Commentaries are the writer's. In some places they may be incomplete and
even inadequate from the Hindu standpoint; but in the meaning attached to
them in Trans-Himalayan Esotericism they are correct. In every case the
writer takes any blame upon herself. Having never claimed personal
infallibility, that which is given on her own authority may leave much to be
desired, in the very abstruse cases where too deep metaphysics is involved.
The teaching is offered as it is understood; and as there are seven keys of
interpretation to every symbol and allegory, that which may not fit a
meaning, say from the psychological or astronomical aspect, will be found
quite correct from the physical or metaphysical.


I hope you understand, that wisdom is important !




from
Sufilight with some questions and friendly words coming out of the "thin
air"...




----- Original Message -----
From: "brianmuehlbach" <brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com>
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION OF THE
MAHATMA LETTERS IS:.


> Brian: If the Mahatma Letters are a fraud, which they apparently are, I
> don't know what this has to do with wisdom.
>
>
http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/index.html
>
> --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-
> theosophy@a...> wrote:
> > Hi Brian and all of you,
> >
> > This is just too much. I had to laugh a little while reading the below
> email
> > from Brian.
> >
> > Brian wrote in the below:
> > "THAT THERE IS NOTHING IN THOSE LETTERS, WHICH COULD NOT
> > HAVE BEEN PENNED BY HPB AND HER EDUCATED COHORTS.
> NOTHING.
> > THE 'WISDOM' IN THEM IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A SUPERIOR
> KNOWLEDGE
> > AND VISION, POSSESSED AND SEEN BY ANCIENT BEINGS OR AGELESS
> > BEINGS OUTSIDE OF TIME. IT IS THE INFORMATION / KNOWLEDGE
> > BASE OF PERSONS WITH A DISTINCT TIME-LIMITED FRAME OF
> > REFERENCE.
> >
> > My Sufilight remarks and questions:
> > Well, that is a view. And it is of course allright to a have a view and
> > present it.
> > But you will then have to admit, that YOU today are NOT having a
> GREAT
> > amount of Wisdom.
> > Do you not agree on that ?
> > So I have to ask where is the solid rock of assurance, we the readers
> will
> > have to 'build' on - if we want to agree with you ???
> >
> > Should we all not seek knowledge from those who are wise - or at
> least seek
> > wisdom ?
> > Or should we listen to the first and best (- i.e. for instance YOU) who
> just
> > shouts LIARS, IDIOTS etc - and then in reality NOTHING else.
> > The above mesage of yours has as such (in a certain sense) NO
> Wisdom behind
> > it at all. Were-as some of the Mahatma Letters are talking about
> things,
> > which if - you - really experienced them your self - would I think make
> your
> > pretty head spin !
> > What do you know about the word "wisdom" or the words "true
> wisdom" ? Have
> > you ever experienced what true wisdom is ? Do you really think, that
> what we
> > humans ordinarily call "the reality" only contains - intellectual
thinking
> > etc. ?
> > If so, I will have to say I certainly disagree - because my daily
> > experiences tells me something else.
> >
> > Now of course true "Wisdom" is knowledge or insight of a kind. Some
> calls
> > it "Prophetic Gifts".
> > And because of that - the posibility of using it AND also misusing it
> comes
> > to mind. But think carefully about it.
> > Would it be wise to mis-use true wisdom ? It don't think so !
> > Because if Wisdom is truly REAL, as I claim it to be, then there must
> be som
> > reason for its existence. Don't you agree?
> >
> >
> > Brian wrote in the below:
> >
> > "PROJECTING THEIR VICTORIAN ERA ESOTERIC WORLD-
> > VIEW BACK ONTO THE HISTORY OF THOUGHT, THE AUTHORS
> APPEAR
> > TO BE WOEFULLY DEFICIENT IN UNDERSTANDING THEIR 'OWN' SO-
> > CALLED INDIAN OR TIBETAN, WTEVER, SACRED TRADITIONS. THE
> > SPECULATIONS OF THE SO-CALLED MASTERS, ABOUT ANCIENT
> > EGYPTIAN AND INDIAN THOUGHT, WERE QUITE LIMITED TO THE
> > INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO HPB AND FRIENDS. THEIR OWN
> > ESOTERIC STUDIES IN ROSICRUCIANISM, MASONRY AND SPIRITISM
> > ETC.
> >
> > My Suflight answer:
> > The above text of yours also continues, as far as I can understand it
> your
> > writing, to put down - the idea of Wisdom Teachings and the
> existence of
> > "wisdom" as a issue worth dealing with. There are as far as I am
> concerned
> > no reason to put down the search for WISDOM!
> > But to put down the misuse of Wisdom or something magical
> Knowledge will be
> > allright. The manner you do it in - just puts down everything also good
> and
> > true Wisdom.
> >
> > Of course we can agree on the negation "NETI, NETI", as "Not this
> and Not
> > that" while dealing with the core of
> > TRUTH of true wisdom. But to put wisdom teachings down, which
> contains this
> > teaching - is according to me to go to far.
> > The students should be allowed to CULL the GOOD they find in each
> scripture.
> > Blavatsky agrees on that in her book The Key to Theosophy.
> >
> >
> > AND WIDE READING IN RELIGION, HISTORY, PHILOSOPHY AND THE
> > SCIENCE OF THEIR DAY, WAS ENOUGH TO FORM THE KNOWLEDGE-
> > BASE EVIDENT IN ALL OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS AND HPB'S BOOKS.
> > BEYOND THIS INFORMATION, THERE IS NOTHING, NOTHING THERE."
> >
> > My Sufilight answer:
> > Yes one might agree with you on the above sentence - if one choses
> to ignore
> > the existence OR possible existence of WISDOM in the Teachings of H.
> P.
> > blavatsky and her Masters. But I disagree on that. The search for
> wisdom is
> > important.
> > To be blinded by fanatic ignorant stances won't help ones stupidity !
> > The New Testament Gospels comes to my mind:
> > Matt.23
> > [16] Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall
> swear by the
> > temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the
> temple,
> > he is a debtor!
> > [17] Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple
> > that sanctifieth the gold?
> > [19] Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar
> that
> > sanctifieth the gift?
> > [24] Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
> > [26] Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and
> > platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
> >
> > John.9
> > [39] And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that
> they which
> > see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
> > [40] And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these
> words, and
> > said unto him, Are we blind also?
> > [41] Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but
> now
> > ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
> >
> > I guess Brian also find the MASTER Jesus Christ to be a fony of the
> Jesuits
> > or the like!
> > Is that true Brian ?
> >
> > from
> > Sufilight with hopefully some words of Wisdom...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "brianmuehlbach" <brianmuehlbach@y...>
> > To: <theos-talk@y...>
> > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 10:40 PM
> > Subject: Theos-World THE REAL QUESTION REG. THE CONCOCTION
> OF THE MAHATMA
> > LETTERS IS:.
> >
> >
> > THE HARE BROTHERS BOOK IS A FIRST ATTEMPT AND EVEN THERE
> > THEOSOPHISTS DID NO REBUT ALL THE POINTS, JUST SOME)MORE
> > PORTANT FOR TODAY IS, AND THE QUESTION FOR CALDWELL TO
> > SHOW PROOF IF HE IS INDEED EXPERT IN THE FIELD. TO BESIDES
> THE
> > HARES QUIRKIES ABOUT FRANCE LANGUAGE EXPRESSIONS AND
> > AMERICAN SLANG IN THE LETTERS THAT STEVE MENTIONS AS
> > BLAVATSKY'S "TUMBNAIL THAT IS ALL OVEER THE PLACE" THE FACT
> > REMAINS ALSO
> > THAT THERE IS NOTHING IN THOSE LETTERS, WHICH COULD NOT
> > HAVE BEEN PENNED BY HPB AND HER EDUCATED COHORTS.
> NOTHING.
> > THE 'WISDOM' IN THEM IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A SUPERIOR
> KNOWLEDGE
> > AND VISION, POSSESSED AND SEEN BY ANCIENT BEINGS OR AGELESS
> > BEINGS OUTSIDE OF TIME. IT IS THE INFORMATION / KNOWLEDGE
> > BASE OF PERSONS WITH A DISTINCT TIME-LIMITED FRAME OF
> > REFERENCE. PROJECTING THEIR VICTORIAN ERA ESOTERIC WORLD-
> > VIEW BACK ONTO THE HISTORY OF THOUGHT, THE AUTHORS
> APPEAR
> > TO BE WOEFULLY DEFICIENT IN UNDERSTANDING THEIR 'OWN' SO-
> > CALLED INDIAN OR TIBETAN, WTEVER, SACRED TRADITIONS. THE
> > SPECULATIONS OF THE SO-CALLED MASTERS, ABOUT ANCIENT
> > EGYPTIAN AND INDIAN THOUGHT, WERE QUITE LIMITED TO THE
> > INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO HPB AND FRIENDS. THEIR OWN
> > ESOTERIC STUDIES IN ROSICRUCIANISM, MASONRY AND SPIRITISM
> > ETC. AND WIDE READING IN RELIGION, HISTORY, PHILOSOPHY AND
> THE
> > SCIENCE OF THEIR DAY, WAS ENOUGH TO FORM THE KNOWLEDGE-
> > BASE EVIDENT IN ALL OF THE MAHATMA LETTERS AND HPB'S BOOKS.
> > BEYOND THIS INFORMATION, THERE IS NOTHING, NOTHING THERE.
> >
> > THEY WERE IN A SENSE MASTERS OF WHATEVER IT WAS THAT HBP
> > AND FRIENDS HAD MASTERED.....THE WESTERN ESOTERIC 'WISDOM'
> > OF THEIR TIME. HOWEVER THEY WERE RANK NEOPHYTES WHEN IT
> > CAME TO MANY THINGS THAT THE MAHATMAS' CLAIMED MASTERY
> > OF. THUS THE 'MASTERS' SHOULD BE TESTED ON THESE THINGS.
> > THEY MADE THE CLAIM OF MASTERY, LET THEM EXPLAIN
> THEMSELVES
> > DANIEL CALWELL BY PROVIDING TEXTUAL EXAMPLES TO SHOW THIS.
> >
> >
> > THEY WERE IN A SENSE MASTERS OF WHATEVER IT WAS THAT HBP
> > AND FRIENDS HAD MASTERED.....THE WESTERN ESOTERIC 'WISDOM'
> > OF THEIR TIME. HOWEVER THEY WERE RANK NEOPHYTES WHEN IT
> > CAME TO MANY THINGS THAT THE MAHATMAS' CLAIMED MASTERY
> > OF. THUS THE 'MASTERS' SHOULD BE TESTED ON THESE THINGS.
> > THEY MADE THE CLAIM OF MASTERY.
> >
> > AFTER I MADE THE HARE BROTHER REMARK STEVE MENTIONED
> THAT
> > BLAVATSKY'S "TUMBNAIL" STEVE WROTE IS ALL OVE R THE PLACE.
> > THE NEXT STEP HOWEVER NOW REALLY SHOULD BE AS STEVE NEXT
> > ALSO WROTE :""There is still one challlenge - more
> > difficult than collecting preicpitaion stories - which has not been
dealt
> > with: how to argue from an unbiased perspective that the mahatma
> > letters did contain the actual thoughts of the mahatmas and not those
> of
> > the amanuensis chelas who produced them?"
> >
> > DOUBTFULL DANIEL C. CALDWELL IS CAPABLE EVER REPONDING TO
> > THIS CHALLENGE. (I AM PLACING THE ABOVE ON MY WEB SITE)
> >
http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehle=
> > b9
> >
> > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" <comments@b...> wrote:.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>