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Nov 04, 2002 05:46 PM
by dalval14

Nov 4 2002

Dear Friends and "wry:"

Re: Numbers in Theosophical philosophy and metaphysics

Re: Discussion on Karma, and UNIVERSE as the result of Planning

if we seek to trace the principles of modern philosophy back to their
sources we find that the history of sects and religions show them
emerging one from the other down the ages: Christianity emerged from
Judaism, this emerged from a rebellion against the sacerdotalism of
the early Brahmins in India {A-Brahm -- 1st Patriarch -- a
non-brahmin} and that is a form of non-philosophical early Hinduism.
In emigrating westward, into the Near-East, these left traces of their
passage in the Egyptian and Greek philosophies of religion in
Zoroastrianism, and in the philosophical religion of Babylon Chaldea
and Assyria. H P B traces these sequences for us in ISIS UNVEILED and
in The SECRET DOCTRINE as well as in several of her articles. ( see LE

You speak about numbers as there are many combinations. For instance,
in the early Theosophical literature the "principles" were numbered
and not always assigned "names" or "labels" One wonders why. Was it

The Metaphysical involution of SPIRIT into Matter is traced and
related to number and geometrical symbols again (S D I 4-6). Matter
is shown to be the end product of indwelling ever directing fields of
force. The "atom" is not solid, and it is deemed to have an eternal
invariable existence by our Science -- since to its properties are
ascribed, ultimately, all phenomena.

Was it to draw attention to the whole teaching and not isolated
applications? Is it because the teaching of Theosophy will be found to
underlie and interpenetrate all aspects of life-support?

After all, Nature was here long before we were born, and our
dependence on air, water, food, and shelter are parts of the great
"gifts" of Nature, provided for our continued existence.

But shall we say that the 60 to 90 years of our present lives give us
enough time to learn everything about NATURE and her UNIVERSE, even of
our Earth and our own selves? No.

So the proposition that man's SPIRIT-SOUL is an immortal (LIKE THE
ATOM) is one offered for consideration by Theosophy. It is further
reinforced by massive evidence adduced in Theosophical literature,
primarily in the writings of H P B. We need to familiarize ourselves
wit them and test them for reasonableness.

Was it to emphasize the arithmetical and geometrical (hence
astronomical and astrological) correlation between the Universal
Principles and man's ? ( see S D I 86-92, 361, 433-4, 570 -575,
200-2, 242-5; S D II 36, 39, 73-4, 598-605, 573-589, 590...,
22, )

It is said that the stars and the Zodiac are for us a kind of
universal clock -- they record the extent and periodical return of
cycles. Hence the relationship between a Nation, a "race," an
individual, or a continent, or the whole world, to cycles. Hence
there is a continual validation of true astrology, if we can locate

Cycles are not only physical (witness in the past few days large
earthquakes all over the world - Alaska, Italy, Venezuela, Sicily,
Pakistan and India,) but they can be psychic or physiological, of
disease or of abnormal thinking, etc... Or financial, as witness
since September last (2001) the world-wide fears that have caused
severe market declines, and the "flight" of "money" out of "stocks"
into less affected areas of security: Bank and Government
securities -- and so on, all kinds of cycles are seen at work. Now we
fear the periodically return of the 'flu and of possibly malaria and
small-pox. (Which are still endemic in the "East.")

In Theosophy, is our attention drawn to numbers, and cycles to show
how Nature geometrizes ?
(S D I 433-4, 639; II 36, ) because of the great HARMONY ( S D
II 622,) and an Evolutionary PLAN (S D I 38, 339, 127, 104, 280-1,
326-9, II 58-9, 79, that pre-dates the actual beginning of
"manifestation. ?" Why would our particular period of manifestation
not be logically the reincarnation of an earlier period where it seems
evident the continuous struggle to become wise and to improve
proceeded just as it does broadly now?

The average person of today is aware of physical cycles, and of
financial ones.

I hope reference to these pages might help,



-----Original Message-----
From: wry Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 10:23 AM
Subject: Re:. Buddhism and Numbers

Hi , Thanks for an interesting reply. One of the reasons I put this
here is that I have read again and again on theosophy lists a
comparison of
Theosophy to Buddhism, and recently, the talk from a Theosophsy
(theos-world newsletter) stating that Theosophy is nothing other than
Mahayana Buddhism (it is not, but that's ok.) I just occasionally like
try to clarify this, little by little.

I'm glad that someone thinks my understanding of Buddhism is
"profound." I
think you are gently pulling my leg. In any case, I am an eclectic
as I do not chant or practice rituals. I agree with you that there is
similarity between Buddhism and many of the great spiritual teachings
humanity, including Christianity. Maybe sometime I will put on here
past writings on this subject which I have sent to other lists. I am
actually a religious fanatic of sorts, though I do not believe in much
anything, as I have always, from childhood, been deeply attracted to
anything that has to so with religion, and have never been too
about which religion it is. At an early age, twenty-seven, I found
Krishnamurti, and in the last fifteen years, an interest in science
has come
into the picture.

Buddhism is a religion that is designed, as any effective religion,
people of many different levels of understanding. But this religion is
contemporary, in a sense, as the idea of dependent origination, is
literally, as well as allegorically, whereas in other religions, such
Christianity, one can only find allegorical reference to this, and it
is so
encoded that most would miss it.

I do not know if you read a message I put out here some time ago, in
response to Dallas, in which I mentioned numbers, but I do not
believe a
complete understanding or experiencing of the forces of the trinity is
possible to a human being. Different numbers have been used to
represent a
human being in different traditions. I suggested that the number six
be a better place to start than the number three, as we are always in

In Mahayana Buddhism, a kind of samadhi-like meditative state where
everything sort of seems to be standing still (behind everything
moving) is
not the end of this great teaching, but actually where it begins. The
as in all major spiritual practices, including Taoism and Alchemy, is
take the "seed" of man and elevate in such a way that it is not
or broken apart and scattered to the winds, but to raise it up whole
in such
a way that a transformation of the individual is affected in that the
generative quality of the whole seed becomes the quality of the whole
person. The problem with a primal cause, whatever it is and however it
conceived, is that its mental conception generates a split, and then
it is

It is the teaching of Mahayana Buddhism that nothing is unchanging,
but that
everything is interconnected and MOVING, and therefore there cannot be
primal cause. This is demonstrated through logic as a KEY part of the
teaching and is called DEPENDENT ORIGINATION. One can try to make the
technical point that EMPTINESS is not moving, but all emptiness means
that nothing exists on its own side, independent of everything else.
Obviously, a full realization of emptiness leads to a state of deep
meditation. The aim is the CONNECT the two understandings of EMPTINESS
DEPENDENT ORIGINATION in such a way that they are inseparable. When
occurs, it is said that this is liberation. I would not know for sure,
but I
am beginning to have a glimmer of understanding, as "through a glass
darkly," about what this is and how it works IN THE BODY. Presumably,
this understanding is complete, one would enter a very small society
Mahayana Buddhists or whomever, as one would then be able to generate
Non-convention or major boddhichitta and could rightfully be called a
Mahayana Buddhist, which I cannot yet call myself. Even to write this,
the possibility of becoming a Mahayana Buddhist sends a thrill of joy
through my body.

Re. what you refer to as "the eternality of the Absolute rootless
root of
all," there are different kinds of Buddhism for different kinds of
For some Buddhists, perhaps, though I am not even sure, this might not
be a
contradiction, but for a Mahayana Buddhist, this would. There is no
way to
approach certain material except by A total OBLITERATION. This is what
mystics refer to when they speak of the lover being a slave to the
Sultan or
the moth being consumed by the flame. When this obliteration is
there is NO RECORD of it having occurred. At this POINT and only at
POINT, certain OPERATIONS can be PREFORMED. It then (presumably)
becomes not
about helping sentient creatures, but about doing the best for
This is BEING, but one would also need KNOWLEDGE. One could perhaps be
called quantum and the other macroscopic, or whatever, but to
translate all
this into ones daily life, in my opinion, it ultimately needs to be
to a daily practice of sweeping the floor consciously. Hope this makes
kind of sense. Responses can sometimes seem exaggerated as they are
down. I will try to approach this subject a little bit more in the
of science sometime (and somewhere) in the next few weeks. Sincerely,


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