Theos-Talk Archives (September 2002 Message tt00039)

Sept 4 2002

Dear Wesley:

This is a splendid reply.

The discussion has to be placed on an even field.

When H P B was editing LUCIFER the Abbe Rocca in Paris
debated with he in the pages of that magazine and the French
LE LOTUS BLEU -- pretty much as I see here. And like here,
the Church and Theosophy appear to be at opposite ends of
the field because of the basis from which they respectively
start.

It is the same in any discussion. There has to be a common
meeting place where concepts are viewed, examined and
exchanged.

Important always is the BASIS chosen. That which is
universal and impartial appears to be superior in terms of
strict logic.

Theosophy looks on man as INTELLIGENCE that uses a FORM and
the Church looks on man's FORM as evidence of God placing
therein a "SOUL," the exact nature and power of which is
obscure. Further the Church advances a group of moral
principles man is expected to observe (if he desires to go
to Heaven upon death), but does not tell him how to do so,
nor does it give their reason or inter-relation. In effect
it says: "Be good." But does not tell him how or why.

Both Church and Science observe the mighty conflict in man's
psyche. Neither one of them can account for that, nor do
they provide man with reasoned bases of experience for
either discovering them or making choices about a path of
conduct to choose. The Church has evolved dogmas. Science
is making minute observations of man's social life and
trying to ascribe if possible their source to physical brain
action. But has no special reason or theory for morals,
ethics, behaviour, interaction, legalities, etc... The
complexity of legal writing and expression has arisen over
centuries of experience in trying to balance men's
interaction so that fairness is observed in all cases.

Theosophy, on the other hand views the WHOLE OF EVOLUTION as
the progressive development of INTELLIGENCE in undying
SPIRITUAL-MINDS (called the immortal MONADS) . It
recognizes a source for the Monads in undifferentiated
primordial substance -- to which it gives for identification
the name "MONADIC ESSENCE" [ S D I 176, 178=9, 610,
620 ]. Fairness is taken to be a basic principle in life,
and all men are considered brothers in spirit to each other.
The Spirit in man is considered to be an immortal, and many
lives (reincarnations) provide successive avenues in which
progress and adjustments are made.

The key to understanding the theosophical integrated
evolutionary scheme is to see all "forms" as representative
of their inherent intelligence -- which is what you say.
But then, the specialized human-form (such as we now use)
represents the stage where individual INTELLIGENCE, (having
already in past aeons passed through the mineral, vegetable
and animal stages of experience, brings, today, in its
immortal self-consciousness, the essence and the power of
using those specialized experiences. It is now ready to add
to these, within itself (as a physical form) is the
embodiment of a FREE MIND which has to learn to integrate
itself with the whole of NATURE. Superior to the Mind is
the immortal SPIRIT/SOUL -- the MONAD. Finally UNIVERSAL
SPIRIT, a "ray" thereof (ATMA ), is the imperishable HIGHER
SELF in every human as in every being anywhere.

The conflict it is engaged in now, is the emergence from the
instinctual and lower rational capacities of the higher
animal forms, and the developing of a true individual
capacity to think independently of how it FEELS. The
THOUGHT-MAN is emerging from the FEELING-MAN. We are
experiencing the travails of a second birth right now -- it
is all in the psyche (a common, yet combined arena, where
the feelings and the mind interact).

Its goal is to impersonalize and universalize its range of
vision.

What is new? It perceives LAW everywhere. It understands
that any choice it makes will in future bring it pleasure or
pain, and these are dependant on the way in which it regards
and observes Nature's general laws. Observe Nature's laws
and we have virtue and brotherhood. Break those laws and we
have selfishness, isolationism and the horror of creating
pain and suffering unjustly for others.

Nature's reaction to all breaking of law is the establishing
of an educational experience whereby the "chooser" has to
experience the suffering that he or she inflicts on others.
We may better understand this process by realizing every
choice we make employs the power of motive to impress all
the Monads (of lesser experience) that make up its form and
the forms of those around him. Being impaired by
selfishness, they channel impaired results to the original
law-breaker, soon or late. This is called individual Karma.

There is here a most curious situation. The "Lower nature"
of each of us is generally characterized by selfishness,
isolation, the seeking of personal, one-life-only
advantages -- such as fame, power, wealth, etc... none of
which are transferable at death. The "Hither nature" of each
of us is the imperishable sense of rectitude, of
brotherhood, of generosity and of assistance. It is
characterized by service -- a service impartially offered to
any one who is needy nearby.

If these ideas can be used, worked out, investigated and
understood the progress of every individual will be rapid
and free of pain, suffering and disease. But it cannot be
imposed on any one else. it has to be a matter of
self-assistance and of inspiration towards an ideal -- a
practical perfection of one's life and motives.

See if this is perhaps a useful survey.

Best wishes,

Dallas.



-----Original Message-----
From: Wes Amerman [mailto:amerman@theosophy.net]
Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 11:32 AM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Theos-World RE: Theosophy claims man derived from
monkeys or not?

<Does Theosophy claim that man derived from monkeys yes or
no ? And if yes
where did man derive from, from noting ?
Bring relevant quotes to back it up your claims.>


Dear Brian,

The real question is *what is man?* Or, better put, *what
is a human
being?* If all you think we are is the biological form,
then what Theosophy
has to say about evolution won't matter to you, or will
appear as nonsense.
If you are at least willing to concede that there just might
be more to us
than our physical bodies, then we can discuss the
theosophical doctrines on
the subject. Bart, Leon and Mic have already addressed your
question better
than I could, but I'll make a few comments anyway:

Theosophy agrees with Science in stating that neither man
nor anything else
comes from *nothing,* either at the hand of a personal god
or in any other
way. *Like produces like* is as much a theosophical concept
as a scientific
one. However, the fundamental concept in Theosophy is that
*consciousness*
is not a by-product of nor excretion from matter, but is
it's own *reality.*
Some might call this *spirit,* or *the power to perceive.*
The *experiences
of consciousness* of whatever type or level could be termed
*soul.* This is
such an abused and misunderstood word that I hesitate to use
it, but there
really isn't another term in English to describe the
concept, so I will stay
with it using the definition as stated. *Soul* has
experience in many
places, or planes, or levels of awareness, from the very
tangible (*matter*
as we think we know it) to the very abstract and ethereal.
*Matter*, as
modern physics has learned, is not just the simple *stuff*
we experience as
the world, but is more complex, more about energy fields and
ultimately less
*real* than anyone could have thought even ten or twenty
years ago.
Theosophically and very broadly, *matter* is the *field of
experience for
soul.* And, lest we somehow get the idea that these three
levels of the
reality of the universe are separate from each other, it
might be helpful to
think of Spirit-Soul-Matter as a sort of universal field or
sphere, with
*spirit* or consciousness at one *end* and *matter* or
substance at the
*other*. Blavatsky calls this "the One homogeneous divine
SUBSTANCE-PRINCIPLE," (Secret Doctrine I, 271)

According to Theosophy, human beings are that point in
nature where the
inner (intellectual) evolution of *soul* reaches
*self-awareness.*
Therefore, the body is not the *real* human being, but its
*vehicle* only.
An essential concept is that there are laws of spiritual,
intellectual and
moral as well as physical evolution, so that when you ask
"where did man
come from?" you also have to ask, "which man?" the
*spiritual*? the
*intellectual*? or the *physical*? All too briefly let us
say that the
*spiritual man* comes from the *root consciousness" or
*power to perceive*
inherent in the *substance-principle* of the universe. The
*intellectual
man* is illuminated by higher self-conscious beings, in an
analogous way
that a teacher or parent *lights up* the consciousness of a
child. The
*physical man* or form is derived from *matter,* but in ways
that only are
apparent when matter as a field for the experience of
consciousness is taken
into account. (See Leon's excellent post yesterday, and my
previous posts
for questions and issues which a true science of
consciousness might help
explain).

This is only a cursory view, but is all I have time to write
at the moment.

Finally, I'm not sure if by "relevant quotes to back up your
claims" you
mean quotes from Theosophical writings. These are readily
available if you
want them, but I would suggest you do your own reading in
works like
Blavatsky's "Key to Theosophy" or William Q. Judge's "Ocean
of Theosophy."
I'm sure others can recommend additional texts as well.
Hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Wes