Theos-Talk Archives (July 2002 Message tt00118)

July 13 2002

Dear Friends:

There are no "caps" ever placed on discussion and
consideration of any subjects in Theosophy or at the U L Ts.
How can there be? The DECLARATION of U L T encourages only
that free aspect of study that volunteers alone generate.
Those are the terms of BROTHERHOOD.

We are independent volunteers, Seekers for Truth, so we can
ask and contribute to any level of discussion, always, with
the proviso that we may be wrong, and others can question
and correct us -- and that the TRUTH is forever a matter of
continuing discovery in the company of, and with the help of
others who (as co-immortals in spirit) are our BROTHERS.

In investigating any religion we are looking into its
origins and reasonableness. Authority and dogmatism are
thrown out of the arena. Facts are to be located, and then
placed alongside other facts which have been demonstrated to
be proved or correct. Yet, the individual acceptance or
rejection of any statement is always under the control of
each person for (and by) themselves. there is no oversight,
and no conformity is ever expected or asked for.

The only advantage in joint study is that we make less
errors, and progress faster when we cooperate. But we have
to be very honest, sincere and active.

H P B observed that THEOSOPHY was for those who wanted it.

It is NOT a religion, but it is religious because truth
binds all. It is not DOGMATIC because no one expression is
the best. The statements of great laws and facts are
constantly being re-investigated to see if those expressions
are reasonable and useful. But this is limited to our own
understanding and (the way we may phrase a truth) is not to
be foisted on others as a sign of their increment in
perception and advance in learning. So tolerance is a prime
attribute all apply.

Everyone has the freedom to study and investigate at their
own pace. All are encouraged to share their findings and
expose their questions and doubts so that those may be
explained (if possible) by those who have found some answers
that satisfy them. And those "answers" are always subject
to consideration and independent acceptance, if
satisfactory. We need to abandon all aspects of pride in
self -- and consider our "understanding" to be only a
growing fraction of progress towards a truth that all share.
It is joint work that really counts -- sharing.

We are out of the "Me First" stream and are establishing a
condition of "ALL OF US TOGETHER."

Intellect always analyses and seeks to emphasize
differences. The magic of theosophical investigation is the
assembly of the many scattered aspects of the TRUTH and
those recreate for ourselves a more focused perception of
that which IS.

We ought never to forget that the UNIVERSE (NATURE ) has
been here far longer than we have, in this incarnation in
this body of ours.

Nature already CONTAINS ALL, including us, and our ideas and
many differences. It HARMONIZES. It also supports all. As
it is the DEITY IMMANENT (omnipresent) the fact that any
being exists is a sign of the tolerance and support that
Nature/DEITY affords to those. Who are we to say otherwise
or the be prejudiced against any one or anything unless it
is false, lie or evil per se.

Its (Nature/DEITY's) laws and rules are always interactive
and cooperative.

It views the least of atoms embodied in form and substance,
and subject to our whims and pleasures, as a LIFE, and as a
progressing IMMORTAL. As we use it, think of it, feel about
it, so we impress it with the invisible brand of our
personalities. Are those creative, caring, supportive and
brotherly or the reverse ? We alone can know that -- so no
one is encouraged to judge any one else. If the atoms are
alive and are the "building blocks" of Nature then each is
essential. Are we then to abuse with our powers and
personal objectives those "younger brothers" who are doing
their duties?

Any one who approaches The SECRET DOCTRINE to study and
inquire of it, is limited by their knowledge, education,
usage of English, and many more things. We all have
limitations and prejudices that have been built into us in
our earlier years. We can recognize this, if we are humble
enough to step out of those self-made limits and recognize
wider and deeper areas of knowledge. We need to tolerate
those differences and thus we can learn from them.

If we still want to learn from The SECRET DOCTRINE or any
other great text, we have to begin to make the effort to
learn the language of that test. Every Science has a
language that its students use. Theosophy is no exception.
It employs the language of universality and relies on the
records of HISTORY. But the broad aspect of its coverage
demands of its student a very broad acquaintance with
philosophical and religious terms and a more than
superficial acquaintance with the religious systems of
others.

Lets thank fortune that our Karma has caused us to incarnate
so close to the publishing of The SECRET DOCTRINE and other
texts of Theosophy. Unlike a study of Plato's writings, we
are not obliged to learn Attic Greek. (Even if we are
provided with the short-cut of translations, we don't have
to labor to identify and then adjust the bias of the
translator. We can read H P B direct.)

Why do we choose H P B writings? Simply to find out if they
have that kind of universality and impartiality that gives
us confidence. And that confidence is the ability to
compare what is written as THEOSOPHY with what our innate
MEMORIES culled from an immense past of many incarnations
tell us is true -- the INTUITION and the VOICE OF
CONSCIENCE. All proof is self-proof.

H P B in Vol. I of The SECRET DOCTRINE adjusts what
anthropology, geology, paleontology and other sciences that
focus on our past tell us about it, based on their findings
of various relicts, architectures, art, tools, etc... Our
problem is to realize that those Scientists, in their effort
to create a reasonable background of a past they are not
able to picture in its entirety, have relied on those
relicts, and speculatively have created a hypotheses
concerning the evolution of our Earth, and of the beings
living on it in the past and present, including man today.

Since they are limited to forms and physical evidence, they
base their theories on those sole substantial records and
shards of evidence. As Science is just emerging from the
thrall of Religious dogmatism and imposed ignorance, it
still is under the time-limits of that control. But that is
gradually disappearing, and those who listen to Church
pronouncements hear that concessions are being monthly made
to science.

Theosophy vies the physical as the phenomena of the
invisible noumenal -- the astral, psychic, intellectual and
spiritual natures innate in all beings. Those are the long
lasting aspects of experience and embedded in them is the
long train of memories that teach individual has. We need
to gradually awaken this in ourselves.

In the lower kingdoms we find hermaphroditism still
prevails. Even in the human body there are recessive
aspects of the sex organs in opposite sex-bodies.
Bisexuality does not now exist in the present (as it did in
the very distant past, says the S D ) human body. The
immortal Spirit-soul of every person is however not sexed.
It is the Karma of our past lives that assigns us in each
incarnation to one sex or the other. I one place The SECRET
DOCTRINE states that man's forming this ROUND is the
prototype of all forms in the animal kingdom. There is a
rule in biology and the study of evolution, which states
that a specialized type of form always descends from a
prototype form that has greater antiquity and provides a
basis for such descent and specialization. In that light
the frames of the apes and monkeys being residents of the
jungles and arboreal are found to be specialization of and
from the root type provided by the human form, originally.
This is rarely emphasized in considering the development of
forms because: It destroys the theory that man's form is an
"ascent" from the ape form. This is important. De
Quatrefages made this very clear and others endorsed it.
But his work is over 150 years ago. It is mentioned in the
S D .

It does not help to try and classify under esoteric or
exoteric such information or answers as we may consider. We
do not know enough to determine that Broadly speaking, that
which is published and discussed is all EXOTERIC. The Inner
and secret CAUSES are always ESOTERIC. Now where can we
contact those. There is only one place, and that is to go
"within" to our own spiritual CORE (THE MONAD) there alone
is the ESOTERIC. The mind of the Personality (Kama-Manas or
Lower Manas) is always engaged in the exoteric. The Higher
Mind ( Buddhi-Manas) alone has the key to the ESOTERIC. It
is impersonal, universal, compassionate, caring, brotherly
and always VIRTUOUS in every respect.

We might say that the strict practice of virtue is the key
to the inner wisdom. These keys may be found early in the
3rd Fragment of the VOICE OF THE SILENCE -- the Paramitas
( pp 52-3 in my copy).

Best wishes,

Dallas

===================


-----Original Message-----
From: Larry F Kolts [mailto:llkingston2@juno.com]
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:30 PM
To: study@blavatsky.net
Subject: [bn-study] Re: Seth/Enos (Enoch)

You certainly have a right to interpret anything you read in
whatever way
you want. On the one hand, we are not being dogmatic in
expecting
everyone to accept everything put out, but on the other hand
you must
know that this site is dedicated to the teachings of HPB
with the
understanding that those teachings are the truth as we now
have it.

I have heard talk at my lodge (ULT NYC) that the SD MAY be
open to
further interpretation and may be symbolic itself, but
without a Master
to guide us further, I guess I'll stick to the literal
interprtation.

One thing i can point out is that it is hard to judge races
and cycles
previous to our own. The sexes came into being after the
"fall into
flesh." We do find life forms on this earth reproducing by
budding or
simple cell division, and these are "fleshy forms." How can
we say that a
astral body can't reproduce by something other than we know?
These early
races were not as material as we are.

I'm sure Dallas or someone else will add to this discussion.
You do bring
up important questions that are worthy of being addressed.

Larry

On Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:31:59 EDT GriggsMark@aol.com writes:
> Larry asks: Comments or questions?
>
> Yes i would like to make a few comments.
>
> As much as i love H.P.B. and her writings i find all that
is posted
> below to
> be very subjective to her interpretations. Infact the
Secret Wisdom
> says
> much to discredit what has been posted.
>
> She writes: "Before him humanity was hermaphrodite".
> This statment i believe is in of itself "exoteric," i
find it to be
> very
> humerious
> as perhaps she also did, that a person was to take this
seriously as
> to
> believe this meant that man was both male and female prior
to the
> Fall.
> i see this in the "esoteric" Light of meaning nothing more
than Man
> and his
> HigherSelf were still together as One, or a Whole still
joined
> together.
> To be both anymore Male and Female than we are now would
just be a
> biological
> impossibilty (unless someone knows something i don't)?
>
> i think one also needs to remember that much has been
revealed and
> discovered
> since the days of the Secreet Doctrine was released in the
late
> 18--.
>
> Now, how can one in light of the Sumerian tablets that
have been
> translated
> for so, so long NOT find the TRUE esoteric meanings of
Adamma, Eve,
> the
> Serpent, Creation, and the Fall itself? Surley it is a
well known
> FACT that
> it predates the Vedas and even Egyptian?
>
> This whole thing on Atlantean races, Lumeria etc...i also
find to be
> very
> subject to her interpretations as well, the whole doctrine
of rounds
>
> etc...however i can agree upon a "cycle" type model but
for one to
> take
> anything seriously about Atlantis, The whole Desert
Civilization
> thing i
> believe just can't be supported. Visions and Discussions
with
> masters on
> various planes is all very jungian to me. So, i would
have a very
> hard time
> being convinced that anything anyone teaches as being
"Doctrine"
> "Truth" has
> to be concidered in the Light of the person recieving
"messages" of
> which has
> to filter down from the Supra-Conciousness, to the
Sub-concious,
> float to the
> top of Consciousness and if "Ego" does not get in the way
be
> interpreted as
> to what one experienced?
>
> "2-HPB next makes the point that Enoch has been used as a
symbol
> for a
> whole group of superior men as well as for a race".
>
> The answer to the whole Adam (model of man) Eve, and
Enoch, Garden
> of E.den
> needs to be re-looked at once again from much earlier
writting than
> the vedas
> and East writtings. This all lays in more of the much
older
> "Western"
> writtings and traditions again i would point to the
Sumerian for the
> key to
> interpretaions for both Exoteric and Esoteric answers
rather depend
> on
> somene's subjective interpretations.
>
> Well hope i didn't get anyone to mad *g*
> but that's the way i see it and others may view it
differently, but
> that's my
> story and i'm sticken to it! *g*
>
> But i do enjoy this list so much!