Theos-Talk Archives (April 2002 Message tt00044)

Wednesday, April 03, 2002


Dear Friends:


Allow me to break in here, please, as this becomes interesting:
Now we seem to be getting somewhere. At least I am more
comfortable with the present letters' approach.

Exchange of symbols is good. I quote:

======================

For an analogy, let's say "the world" consists of:

1. Universe = big pot

2. Space = space in pot

3. material things = minestrone soup

So we're the ingredients in the soup . . . and . . .

On second thought, if I continue with this analogy, I suspect
that
things might tend to get somewhat out of hand . . . Actually, I
can
see myself easily enough continuing along those lines, (with a
reasonably straight face, I think, for the most part), but I
suspect
that, if I do, some of us might tend to "get into" all kinds of
all too
seemingly mundane (exoteric) things ...

===============================

You have cast the entire analogy in physical terms -- physical
limits. I believe the concepts are far larger.

Let me try to express what I sense:



1.	UNIVERSE	= BIG POT.

And we all know that the "big pot" concept indicates our MINDS
limit themselves to what we think must be the "limits of matter."
Not all will agree as to the dimensions, but a "big pot" is about
as good as a "big egg." ( like the "Egg of Brahma" )

In The SECRET DOCTRINE H P B gives us from p. 4 ( Vol. I) on a
survey of symbology used by ancient science and philosophy in
recording their thoughts and observations.

A circle drawn on a large sheet of neutral colored paper
symbolizes a manifested Universe. But the circle indicates a
division between enclosed SPACE ( "space in a pot" ) and the
SPACE THAT IS UNLIMITED -- outside the pot. This unlimited SPACE
is said in thought to be the representative of the ABSOLUTE
(THAT WHICH IS, whether there is manifestation or no
manifestation). The ancient Hindus named its borderland:
PARAMAPADATMAVA -- ( THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY p, 149) or that which
borders on the Absolute.

"Material things" (your "minestrone") were symbolized by the 2
foci inside the "Egg of Brahma." (This "Egg" is named the
MONAD.)

If you choose two foci ( SPIRIT and MATTER in contrast with one
another ) you obtain an ovoid. An exact circle is unknown in the
plane of manifestation since the basic DUAD: SPIRIT ( or
Perfection) and MATTER ( or limited imperfection ) are for that
time in contrast. Since they are PERCEIVED it is assumed that
the Perceiver is the Universal Mind.

The line that unites the 2 foci in th "egg" of the manifested is
deemed to be INTELLIGENCE or UNIVERSAL MIND ( Mahat).

Going back to the "Big Pot" and what it may be, and what is
"outside" it.

We don't really know what those limits (if any) are.

What would then form those limits?

What is OUTSIDE those limits? Still more "SPACE ?"

Sounds in a way like the illustration you selected and the old
"Egg of Brahma." have the same 2 questions prevailing. What is
the "shell ?" and, what lies OUTSIDE the shell ?

So the BIG POT may be a selected UNIVERSE among many in an
illimitable plenum, which our physically limited (IN EXPERIENCE)
Minds cannot fully encompass. So we living in the "here and now,
may call our Universe or our Solar system, or our Earth the "big
Pot" for the time being.

Now we could change gears and apply to this analogy the concepts
of Metaphysics which are dealing with ideals, archetypes and the
unlimited.

If so, we see emerging the Theosophical concepts of -- in
sequence

1.	the ABSOLUTE -- an eternal but indefinable background in and
from which all emerges in manifestation and to which all returns
when any period of manifestation in one or all UNIVERSES ceases.
(The "Big Pot" and all its contents disappear into the resolution
we might call the ABSOLUTE.) -- Since we cannot comprehend a
situation where there is no-thing we (our embodied minds) contend
that there is in fact a rubbing out of all the work of
manifestation, of all the many beings involved, and of the entire
progress they achieved as a whole. It calls them "maya" or
illusion and banishes them from any possible existence. Logic
emphatically states this is not so. The resolution does not
extend to the eternal SPIRITUAL IMPRESSION and the SPIRITUAL BASE
that is truly immortal in all things and underlies their progress
eternally. That forever continues and will be present at the
time of re-manifestation -- so that the entire cortege and
procession resumes its advance in that far distant future. [ see
ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISHISHTADWAITA -- H.P.Blavatsky
[Theosophist, January 1886; BLAVATSKY: Collected Works (TPH)
Vol. 7 p. 50 ; U L T H P B Articles III p. 265-6 ]

2.	The IDEA of Manifestation, is sometimes called the
UNMANIFESTED LOGOS. But if it is an "idea," then that indicates
a Mind as a focus and a point of priority --m something that
transcends and outlasts all changes. It indicates the concept
that one, or all UNIVERSES, reincarnate; and that
"manifestation" is a cyclic or periodic affair. It indicates
that the SPIRITUAL SELF of one and all is never annihilated. It
may rest in Pralaya or Mahapralaya for a very long time as we
measure "time," but it never escapes the eternal impression made
in the Akasa of DURATION.

This introduces 1. pre-existence; 2. Spirit and Matter, 3.
Mind, 4. Cycles, 5. Motion, and 6. Law (and minor laws). It
also implies 7. CONSCIOUSNESS, whether total or individual, as
"something" notes and records events.

If so, then there has to be a "recording medium" (Akasa) in which
these records are eternally set -- as memories of the past
however remote, and from which emerge in cyclic waves and
vibrations (under eternal laws and KARMA) the Plans of a fresh
construction, and a new field of manifestation, of evolution and
eventually of the dissolution of all such temporary forms -- only
the spiritual impression forever remains. The archetypal forms
of the past are evoked and used as a basis for new assemblage of
"materials." [ This is analogous to the process of
reincarnation. ]

These, the: 1. re-emergence, 2. progress, and 3.
dissolution, give rise to the concepts of "maya" or of universal
illusion. It is because they, as constructs. are always in
movement. But it also implies that there is a Perceiver who is
not affected by the forces that bring any "maya" (illusion) to a
close.

If we accept this as a valid and reasoned concept, and/or a
fact -- that all limits and all forms are temporary and illusory,
there is an important question remaining:

SOMETHING is OBSERVING the impermanency and all the changes.
What is THAT ?

And, logically we return to the non-manifest ( or the An-Atman of
old Hindu philosophy ) -- also called PARABRAHM or the "source"
from which the periodical BRAHMA emerges, lives and into which it
eventually dissolves and returns, leaving the field of manifested
perception.

3.	thus we see that the IDEA OF MANIFESTATION (or of
re-emergence out of PARAMARTHA -- absolute existence) is followed
by the 2nd LOGOS or the MANIFESTING LOGOS. The ancient Plan is
established and the actors are re-animated and given their places
on the stage as it re-forms. From PARAMAPADHA (bliss) where the
substance is SUDDHA-SATTVA (spiritual purity) there is the
periodic return of "Nirvanees" to resume their pilgrimage (S D
II p, 79-80, 93-4, 109-110 refers to this)

4.	Having done its work of transiting from the non-manifest into
the apparent chaos (abyss) of unorganized "matter" the
MANIFESTING LOGOS becomes the MANIFESTED LOGOS ( the 3rd in the
chain.) But the volume of work being vast this POWER (the
Manifested Logos) splits itself into the uncountable replicas of
itself that are called in Theosophy MONADS. In this way "God
immanent" becomes "God OMNIPRESENT."

5.	This MANIFESTED LOGOS ( a word signifying IDEA, or PLAN, or
CYCLIC order) proceeds to divide itself into 10 -- or into 3
(spiritual) + 7 (material) aspects, all being equal, but one
(the highest -- ATMA) able to synthesize all of them when the
ultimate resolution back into the INDESCRIBABLE SOURCE comes as a
point of final "time" at the end of the manifested TIME that has
been pre-set for that UNIVERSE or for what is the WHOLE SET of
UNIVERSES.

6.	We may well ask when and where does "time" emerge. It emerges
when the manifesting Logos begins its work of transiting the
older forces and powers stored in the ABSOLUTENESS into forms and
limits -- in effect it is the transition of limited and illusory
TIME out of immeasurable DURATION.

7. In The SECRET DOCTRINE (Vol 1, pp 570-575) we are given a
survey of the nature and work of the great builders and cosmic
creators at work in cooperation through every possible aspect of
development.

8.	Humanity represents the most sensitive point of intelligence
and consciousness where the capacity of the material pole to make
"forms" meets the potency of the spiritual pole to offer
consciousness to those forms. The bridge is the independent and
free Human Mind. Our exercise (here and now) of this capacity
results in considerations such as this.

We as humans represent the third factor, that which transcends
the limitations of "maya" and the concept of the potential
energies and forces that give harmony and creative, dynamic
balance to
the worlds we live in. In the manifested MONAD, which is a DUAD
of spirit/matter, we discover that its motion and development
require it to become a triangle --- a TRIAD of
spirit-matter-mind. This is the "spiritual I" which inhabits and
uses our physical bodies.

Actually it is a double triangle as the material side is
represented by a triangle with apex pointed down, and the
spiritual triangle has its apex pointed up. The central pint
enclosed is the place of the human mind that looks in all
directions, and an "see everything at once" when it wills to do
so.

The range of our intelligence starts with an ignorance of our
potentials, it then ranges as experience accumulates memories, to
a grasp of their probable existence, and ends with the full power
to employ those universal powers in harmony with all the others
in assisting the growth and perception in the Unlimited Human
Thought, as a Power needed to be made active and guided by us for
cooperation, interaction, and brotherhood -- as the practice of
impersonal and universal ethics, morals and virtues. These
concepts will be found at the base of every ancient religion and
show that this philosophy was their Source, and is truly
universal.

Once that we perceive the immortality of all other beings and
humans, our attitude becomes one grasps the fat we are "Eternal
Pilgrims" and close relatives who will never part. Then the
expression of our relations changes, and becomes that of
spontaneous generosity, compassion and charity -- such as extends
a helping hand at any point of need. The concept of "stranger,"
or "foreigner," or "not my community" disappears. We enter the
FAMILY OF MAN.

This may be a great amount of conceptualization -- as a theory,
or a diagram in words to consider -- but we could say that a
contemplation of the two interlaced triangles within the CIRCLE
epitomizes the whole of this. Man in the center, is symbolized
by the TAU.

I am sure this will be raising some questions and more
observations. I would be glad to know of them.

Best wishes,


Dallas

================================

-----Original Message-----
From: M-----
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 4:29 AM
To: Theosophy Study
Subject: re Gerald, Bruce . . .


Gerald wrote:

<<OBEs and NDEs happen, and they happen to probably half the
population at some point (both my wife and I have had both). The
problem is in trying to explain them.>>

How do you mean "problem," Gerald? I thought you're on record as
saying in effect that the world around us is a combined product
of
individual and collective worldviews? Or something like that?

For an analogy, let's say "the world" consists of:

1. Universe = big pot

2. Space = space in pot

3. material things = minestroni soup

So we're the ingredients in the soup . . . and . . .

On second thought, if I continue with this analogy, I suspect
that
things might tend to get somewhat out of hand . . . Actually, I
can
see myself easily enough continuing along those lines, (with a
reasonably straight face, I think, for the most part), but I
suspect
that, if I do, some of us might tend to "get into" all kinds of
all too
seemingly mundane (exoteric) things that people have come to
associate with soup , and, on the other hand, the really
interesting
(esoteric) aspects (as possibly represented by the likes of
various
phases of cooking, recipes, eating, etc.?) might tend to get kind
of
overlooked, maybe . . . (and maybe even snickered over---not
unlike
in "real life"?)?

Instead: In my humble speculative opinion I "seriously" suspect
that all dualistic phenomena, in the broadest sense, (in a sense,
"I
think"), represent some forms of "understanding" or "knowing"
(ie,
whatever that kind of "understanding/knowing" "really" "means").
And so the ingredients of our "knowing," (like the ingredients in
our
soup) are basically "just" the products, IMHSO, of
collective/individual "worldviews" (or cooking), essentially:

That is, Individually we have subscribed to a collective
worldview
(as per MHSO), and so at some point, in some cases, we begin to
suspect that we are, in effect, "more" (in some way, in some
"esoteric sense") than the ingredients of our
collective/individual
worldview (or soup); and when we "intuitively" begin to suspect
that kind of thing, that suspicion is our current version of
"knowing"
that our worldview (and soup) are, as some say, "mayavic" in the
sense
that "we suspect" that they're the subjective/objective
projections of "current-agreement understanding/knowing":

And so "everything" (ie, all the soup ingredients) go into that
"knowing/understanding" collective/individual worldview (or pot):

And so, in the case of "astral travel," (for example), one might
at
least "begin to explain them" (ie, "I might," at any rate, in my
speculative way) by such as (to use the soup analogy, if I may?):
possibly we're all, in some way, on some level, "afraid" that we
might, in effect, get "eaten" in some way, in some sense, unless
we
can somehow "divorce ourselves" from our current-ingredient
focus;
and so "astrel travel" might be seen as a form of "transference"
. . .
? (Jung, what do you think?):

Maybe we occasionally find a way of transferring our worldview
to, in effect, a different and "larger" bowl of soup, and, from
there,
maybe even a still "larger" bowl of soup, and so on; and, as per
reports from various transferers, apparently, "our ingredients"
seem
to vary substantially as we, in effect, jump from bowl to bowl.
But,
when we're in between bowls are we "astral traveling" . . . . ?

Sorry, Gerald, I know I probably didn't tell you anything new,
exactly. I think I was really just trying to stir the soup,
basically,
IMHSO. And, besides, soup being soup, (no jokes, here, for a
minute,
please!), what else can we do with it?

Speculatively,


CUT